compatability with Vista

I can't believe this utter tripe! What a load of crap.

For a start I DIDN'T want a new laptop with vista on it I wanted a new
laptop with XP on it (better the devil you know) but because MS no longer
sells XP and because everyone knew that Vista would cause problems, all new
laptops with XP still on them were sold out!

Second, it would not be a very large amount of coding to make Vista simply
able to read and use any XP driver. That is logical and easy and would not
have the effect of slowing it down to a snail's pace. What a stupid
statement! What is so hard about writing a program that translates XP
drivers into Vista-speak? I DO NOT ACCEPT that a more sophisticated
operating system shouldn't be able to run something that a lesser
sophisticated one was able to. Unless it is a matter of outmoded hardware
(for eg. a printer that used an outmoded form of connector such as a
parallel cable, etc). There is nothing wrong with my printer - it can still
be connected to my laptop and it still does the job perfectly. I AM being
forced to upgrade it because of Microsoft's laziness and stupid lack of
concern for their users.

You may think it reasonable as a Microsoft devotee that a four year old
printer that still works perfectly can no longer be used. But I don't, and
neither do thousands of other ordinary people who are sick of Microsoft's
Big Brother mentality.



"Cari (MS-MVP)" <NewsGroups@coribright.com> wrote in message
news:eHpqN0qaHHA.4008@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> If Vista is made backwards compatible with all older hardware and
> software, we might as well call it Windows 3.1 and be satisfied with the
> speed that it manages to reach ie snail pace. At some point, one must
> move forward. What was so wrong with your old PC that you required a new
> one? Did you perhaps consider repairing or upgrading it before you
> purchased the new one? As far as I'm aware, no one is forcing you to
> change to a new PC with Vista.
>
> If you want to run at a high speed with today (and tomorrow's) technology,
> you must accept that some old hardware and software will NOT be compatible
> with it. If you want to keep this old hardware, then use your older PC.
>
> And it's not when you purchased the printer, it's the date when the
> printer was first manufactured. Lexmark are going back to 2003 with their
> Vista drivers. Far enough to cover most printers still in service
> (according to their records and research). It may have been a popular
> low end printer, but apparently most of them are no longer working.
> --
> Cari (MS-MVP)
> Windows Technologies - Printing & Imaging
> http://www.coribright.com/windows
>
>
>
> "Greg" <noway> wrote in message
> news:%230E3iwoaHHA.2172@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> My Z25 is not a ten year old printer. It was manufactured in February
>> 2003 and I bought it sometime that year. It is four years old. The Z25
>> was a popular low end printer.
>>
>> Besides, my point is that regardless of whether a manufacturer of a
>> printer decides to write Vista drivers for it, Microsoft should write
>> their new operating system so that it can use the drivers of the old
>> operating system. Is that too much to ask? Why on earth can't such a
>> 'so-vista-cated' program use the drivers employed by its less
>> sophisticated previous incarnation? Why should we have to buy new
>> printers?
>>
>

Greg wrote:
> I can't believe this utter tripe! What a load of crap.
>
> For a start I DIDN'T want a new laptop with vista on it I wanted a new
> laptop with XP on it (better the devil you know) but because MS no
> longer sells XP and because everyone knew that Vista would cause
> problems, all new laptops with XP still on them were sold out!
>
> Second, it would not be a very large amount of coding to make Vista
> simply able to read and use any XP driver. That is logical and easy
> and would not have the effect of slowing it down to a snail's pace.
> What a stupid statement! What is so hard about writing a program that
> translates XP drivers into Vista-speak? I DO NOT ACCEPT that a more
> sophisticated operating system shouldn't be able to run something
> that a lesser sophisticated one was able to. Unless it is a matter of
> outmoded hardware (for eg. a printer that used an outmoded form of
> connector such as a parallel cable, etc). There is nothing wrong with
> my printer - it can still be connected to my laptop and it still does
> the job perfectly. I AM being forced to upgrade it because of
> Microsoft's laziness and stupid lack of concern for their users.
>
> You may think it reasonable as a Microsoft devotee that a four year
> old printer that still works perfectly can no longer be used. But I
> don't, and neither do thousands of other ordinary people who are sick
> of Microsoft's Big Brother mentality.
>
>
>
Greg, I don't blame you for being angry and you're right, there are a lot of
people in the same boat. That said, there are reasons, even if you won't or
don't accept them and it's a little more complicated than what you've
already heard here.

Unfortunately, a hallmark of Windows systems has been a lack of stability.
One of the major reasons for that lack of stability was drivers, either
because of sloppy coding from the manufacturer's or beecause their drivers
modified system files and it was allowed by the OS. With each iteration of
Windows, they've gotten a little tougher with regard to driver compatibility
and driver certification..

What is happening in Vista is evolutionary. It's not that Vista can't read
the drivers with which it is incompatible. It's that Vista is far less
forgiving than previous systems of uncertified drivers and drivers whose
installation routine would modify system files. Windows has been moving in
this direction for quite awhile. One of the reasons it's not as simple as
you think is, if a driver makes a change in system files, it ripples through
the entire setup and printing is a critical function of most applications.
Not only might this effect applications, allowing some of these drivers to
simply be installed on Vista could make your setup unstable. If not now,
perhaps as you go forward and/or might have an effect on other software or
hardware you might install.

This could adversly effect your setup even down the road when you might be
ready for a new printer or when your current printer just dies. If your
printer's driver installation modified system files, even when you uninstall
the printer and its software, the damage that its drivers did might still
remain. And, you then might be wondering, why isn't your new, fully
compatible Vista printer performing properly. Printing has changed a great
deal in the last four years and the printing subsystem needed to be updated
to accomodate user's needs and desires and those needs and desires might
reflect your own as well, if not today, perhaps down the road.

Even if that need never exists for you, there's still the issue of system
stability and, as I said, drivers have been a major choke point, a major
cause of issues. It's no secret, that each generation Windows has required
some hardware changes of the user. We had similar complaints when XP was
released but there's more this time because Vista is far less forgiving, far
less tollerant of bad drivers. And consider how long it's taking for new
Vista compatible hardware to reach the market. Usually, there's a lot of
new hardware available when an OS is released; not this time. The driver
certification process has been far more rigorous and this has slowed the
process down. Usually, there are a lot of new applications released to take
advantage of the new OS; not this time. Many developers are in a holding
pattern because they need to see some of this new hardware in order to see
how best their applications might take advantage of it.

I'm speaking as someone who is not all that crazy about Vista right now and
if you think its irritating to you that you have a 4 year old printer that
appears to have been made obsolete by the fact you needed a new computer at
this time, imagine how I feel having just purchased a new printer in
January that was promoted as Vista ready and as yet, there are still no
Vista drivers for it at the HP website; I guess, "ready" meaning it will be
compatible with Vista whenever HP can release the drivers.:-) I'm not
trying to compare our pain, I'm pointing out to you that I'm feeling it too
despite the above.

That said, as a long time Windows user, going back to Windows 3.1 and 3.11,
I can appreciate the need to get tough with regard to drivers and while it's
a bit painful at the moment, I'm hopeful this will mean a better, more
stable system going forward.

I'm not trying to change your mind but I did think a little perspective and
additional explanation was necessary given how angry you are. I'm not
saying you're aren't justified in your anger or frustration but I hope the
above gives you a little more insight into what is going on and why.

--
Michael Solomon

Thanks for that long explanation Michael.

It is never as simple as it seems with anything to do with any MS product,
that's true. They have a way of designing things to be as big and cumbersome
and complicated as possible. I lament the days of the passing of the
Commodore Amiga. If only Mehdi Ali had been running MS and Bill Gates
running Commodore we would have had an OS a tenth the size and ten times
more efficiently coded. But no use crying over spilt milk. It's a monopoly
we have to deal with whether we like it or not.

What you said notwithstanding, I still say where there is a will there is a
way, and MS do not have the will to serve their clientele in this matter.
They could do whatever they put their mind to. Even if it really matters
that some older drivers change system settings (and I doubt that it does
really matter much in most cases), it would be a simple matter to have a
registry of changes that the driver software makes that could be rolled back
later when you want to add a vista-driven printer, in much the same way that
the existing system restore program allows you to specify restore points on
a wider level. It could be done, they just don't care to do it.

regards

Greg

"Michael Solomon" <user@#notme.com> wrote in message
news:ekZn$TDcHHA.2552@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Greg wrote:
>> I can't believe this utter tripe! What a load of crap.
>>
>> For a start I DIDN'T want a new laptop with vista on it I wanted a new
>> laptop with XP on it (better the devil you know) but because MS no
>> longer sells XP and because everyone knew that Vista would cause
>> problems, all new laptops with XP still on them were sold out!
>>
>> Second, it would not be a very large amount of coding to make Vista
>> simply able to read and use any XP driver. That is logical and easy
>> and would not have the effect of slowing it down to a snail's pace.
>> What a stupid statement! What is so hard about writing a program that
>> translates XP drivers into Vista-speak? I DO NOT ACCEPT that a more
>> sophisticated operating system shouldn't be able to run something
>> that a lesser sophisticated one was able to. Unless it is a matter of
>> outmoded hardware (for eg. a printer that used an outmoded form of
>> connector such as a parallel cable, etc). There is nothing wrong with
>> my printer - it can still be connected to my laptop and it still does
>> the job perfectly. I AM being forced to upgrade it because of
>> Microsoft's laziness and stupid lack of concern for their users.
>>
>> You may think it reasonable as a Microsoft devotee that a four year
>> old printer that still works perfectly can no longer be used. But I
>> don't, and neither do thousands of other ordinary people who are sick
>> of Microsoft's Big Brother mentality.
>>
>>
>>
> Greg, I don't blame you for being angry and you're right, there are a lot
> of people in the same boat. That said, there are reasons, even if you
> won't or don't accept them and it's a little more complicated than what
> you've already heard here.
>
> Unfortunately, a hallmark of Windows systems has been a lack of stability.
> One of the major reasons for that lack of stability was drivers, either
> because of sloppy coding from the manufacturer's or beecause their drivers
> modified system files and it was allowed by the OS. With each iteration
> of Windows, they've gotten a little tougher with regard to driver
> compatibility and driver certification..
>
> What is happening in Vista is evolutionary. It's not that Vista can't
> read the drivers with which it is incompatible. It's that Vista is far
> less forgiving than previous systems of uncertified drivers and drivers
> whose installation routine would modify system files. Windows has been
> moving in this direction for quite awhile. One of the reasons it's not as
> simple as you think is, if a driver makes a change in system files, it
> ripples through the entire setup and printing is a critical function of
> most applications. Not only might this effect applications, allowing some
> of these drivers to simply be installed on Vista could make your setup
> unstable. If not now, perhaps as you go forward and/or might have an
> effect on other software or hardware you might install.
>
> This could adversly effect your setup even down the road when you might be
> ready for a new printer or when your current printer just dies. If your
> printer's driver installation modified system files, even when you
> uninstall the printer and its software, the damage that its drivers did
> might still remain. And, you then might be wondering, why isn't your new,
> fully compatible Vista printer performing properly. Printing has changed
> a great deal in the last four years and the printing subsystem needed to
> be updated to accomodate user's needs and desires and those needs and
> desires might reflect your own as well, if not today, perhaps down the
> road.
>
> Even if that need never exists for you, there's still the issue of system
> stability and, as I said, drivers have been a major choke point, a major
> cause of issues. It's no secret, that each generation Windows has
> required some hardware changes of the user. We had similar complaints
> when XP was released but there's more this time because Vista is far less
> forgiving, far less tollerant of bad drivers. And consider how long it's
> taking for new Vista compatible hardware to reach the market. Usually,
> there's a lot of new hardware available when an OS is released; not this
> time. The driver certification process has been far more rigorous and
> this has slowed the process down. Usually, there are a lot of new
> applications released to take advantage of the new OS; not this time.
> Many developers are in a holding pattern because they need to see some of
> this new hardware in order to see how best their applications might take
> advantage of it.
>
> I'm speaking as someone who is not all that crazy about Vista right now
> and if you think its irritating to you that you have a 4 year old printer
> that appears to have been made obsolete by the fact you needed a new
> computer at this time, imagine how I feel having just purchased a new
> printer in January that was promoted as Vista ready and as yet, there are
> still no Vista drivers for it at the HP website; I guess, "ready" meaning
> it will be compatible with Vista whenever HP can release the drivers.:-)
> I'm not trying to compare our pain, I'm pointing out to you that I'm
> feeling it too despite the above.
>
> That said, as a long time Windows user, going back to Windows 3.1 and
> 3.11, I can appreciate the need to get tough with regard to drivers and
> while it's a bit painful at the moment, I'm hopeful this will mean a
> better, more stable system going forward.
>
> I'm not trying to change your mind but I did think a little perspective
> and additional explanation was necessary given how angry you are. I'm not
> saying you're aren't justified in your anger or frustration but I hope the
> above gives you a little more insight into what is going on and why.
>
> --
> Michael Solomon
>

Folks,

I get the frustration. Your printer works. You move to Vista. Your
printer doesn't work anymore. You posted here & no one has come forth with
a working solution to your problem.

Many of the changes we made in Vista for security & stability broke old code
& probably are what broke the driver for your device. When we took a look
at these changes, it was obvious that some code would be broken. We worked
with vendors, manufacturers. We released several betas. We have several
printer manufacturers in house to work with us every day.

Make no mistake; these changes in Vista are good for everyone. Not short
term good like everything that ran on XP runs on Vista, but long term good
like fewer security holes, fewer blue screens, fewer worms making life
unpleasant for everyone. We took a look at the work hardware vendors & our
customers would have to go through to deal with these problems and weighed
them against the costs of another big bad security problem. Clearly it's a
mixed bag, and I believe that our choice was the responsible one.

Can we do better? Yeah, I sure hope so. And if you have constructive
comments that can help us get there, many of us are reading these forums
looking for them (though you probably should start a new thread for them).
Can anyone at MSFT make your driver work on Vista? Nope. The manufacturer
is responsible for their drivers.

Thanks,
Dan

"Greg" <greg.munro@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:%23T2XSWXdHHA.1080@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Thanks for that long explanation Michael.
>
> It is never as simple as it seems with anything to do with any MS product,
> that's true. They have a way of designing things to be as big and
> cumbersome and complicated as possible. I lament the days of the passing
> of the Commodore Amiga. If only Mehdi Ali had been running MS and Bill
> Gates running Commodore we would have had an OS a tenth the size and ten
> times more efficiently coded. But no use crying over spilt milk. It's a
> monopoly we have to deal with whether we like it or not.
>
> What you said notwithstanding, I still say where there is a will there is
> a way, and MS do not have the will to serve their clientele in this
> matter. They could do whatever they put their mind to. Even if it really
> matters that some older drivers change system settings (and I doubt that
> it does really matter much in most cases), it would be a simple matter to
> have a registry of changes that the driver software makes that could be
> rolled back later when you want to add a vista-driven printer, in much the
> same way that the existing system restore program allows you to specify
> restore points on a wider level. It could be done, they just don't care to
> do it.
>
> regards
>
> Greg
>
> "Michael Solomon" <user@#notme.com> wrote in message
> news:ekZn$TDcHHA.2552@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> Greg wrote:
>>> I can't believe this utter tripe! What a load of crap.
>>>
>>> For a start I DIDN'T want a new laptop with vista on it I wanted a new
>>> laptop with XP on it (better the devil you know) but because MS no
>>> longer sells XP and because everyone knew that Vista would cause
>>> problems, all new laptops with XP still on them were sold out!
>>>
>>> Second, it would not be a very large amount of coding to make Vista
>>> simply able to read and use any XP driver. That is logical and easy
>>> and would not have the effect of slowing it down to a snail's pace.
>>> What a stupid statement! What is so hard about writing a program that
>>> translates XP drivers into Vista-speak? I DO NOT ACCEPT that a more
>>> sophisticated operating system shouldn't be able to run something
>>> that a lesser sophisticated one was able to. Unless it is a matter of
>>> outmoded hardware (for eg. a printer that used an outmoded form of
>>> connector such as a parallel cable, etc). There is nothing wrong with
>>> my printer - it can still be connected to my laptop and it still does
>>> the job perfectly. I AM being forced to upgrade it because of
>>> Microsoft's laziness and stupid lack of concern for their users.
>>>
>>> You may think it reasonable as a Microsoft devotee that a four year
>>> old printer that still works perfectly can no longer be used. But I
>>> don't, and neither do thousands of other ordinary people who are sick
>>> of Microsoft's Big Brother mentality.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Greg, I don't blame you for being angry and you're right, there are a lot
>> of people in the same boat. That said, there are reasons, even if you
>> won't or don't accept them and it's a little more complicated than what
>> you've already heard here.
>>
>> Unfortunately, a hallmark of Windows systems has been a lack of
>> stability. One of the major reasons for that lack of stability was
>> drivers, either because of sloppy coding from the manufacturer's or
>> beecause their drivers modified system files and it was allowed by the
>> OS. With each iteration of Windows, they've gotten a little tougher with
>> regard to driver compatibility and driver certification..
>>
>> What is happening in Vista is evolutionary. It's not that Vista can't
>> read the drivers with which it is incompatible. It's that Vista is far
>> less forgiving than previous systems of uncertified drivers and drivers
>> whose installation routine would modify system files. Windows has been
>> moving in this direction for quite awhile. One of the reasons it's not
>> as simple as you think is, if a driver makes a change in system files, it
>> ripples through the entire setup and printing is a critical function of
>> most applications. Not only might this effect applications, allowing some
>> of these drivers to simply be installed on Vista could make your setup
>> unstable. If not now, perhaps as you go forward and/or might have an
>> effect on other software or hardware you might install.
>>
>> This could adversly effect your setup even down the road when you might
>> be ready for a new printer or when your current printer just dies. If
>> your printer's driver installation modified system files, even when you
>> uninstall the printer and its software, the damage that its drivers did
>> might still remain. And, you then might be wondering, why isn't your
>> new, fully compatible Vista printer performing properly. Printing has
>> changed a great deal in the last four years and the printing subsystem
>> needed to be updated to accomodate user's needs and desires and those
>> needs and desires might reflect your own as well, if not today, perhaps
>> down the road.
>>
>> Even if that need never exists for you, there's still the issue of system
>> stability and, as I said, drivers have been a major choke point, a major
>> cause of issues. It's no secret, that each generation Windows has
>> required some hardware changes of the user. We had similar complaints
>> when XP was released but there's more this time because Vista is far less
>> forgiving, far less tollerant of bad drivers. And consider how long it's
>> taking for new Vista compatible hardware to reach the market. Usually,
>> there's a lot of new hardware available when an OS is released; not this
>> time. The driver certification process has been far more rigorous and
>> this has slowed the process down. Usually, there are a lot of new
>> applications released to take advantage of the new OS; not this time.
>> Many developers are in a holding pattern because they need to see some of
>> this new hardware in order to see how best their applications might take
>> advantage of it.
>>
>> I'm speaking as someone who is not all that crazy about Vista right now
>> and if you think its irritating to you that you have a 4 year old printer
>> that appears to have been made obsolete by the fact you needed a new
>> computer at this time, imagine how I feel having just purchased a new
>> printer in January that was promoted as Vista ready and as yet, there are
>> still no Vista drivers for it at the HP website; I guess, "ready" meaning
>> it will be compatible with Vista whenever HP can release the drivers.:-)
>> I'm not trying to compare our pain, I'm pointing out to you that I'm
>> feeling it too despite the above.
>>
>> That said, as a long time Windows user, going back to Windows 3.1 and
>> 3.11, I can appreciate the need to get tough with regard to drivers and
>> while it's a bit painful at the moment, I'm hopeful this will mean a
>> better, more stable system going forward.
>>
>> I'm not trying to change your mind but I did think a little perspective
>> and additional explanation was necessary given how angry you are. I'm
>> not saying you're aren't justified in your anger or frustration but I
>> hope the above gives you a little more insight into what is going on and
>> why.
>>
>> --
>> Michael Solomon
>>
>