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Vista ICS flaky network

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2009
Userlevel6
 

Posts: n/a
Vista ICS flaky network
Hi! Sorry if this seems long, I'm trying to be as brief as I can...

I just built myself a new Vista Ultimate with SP1 system to take the place
of my previous entertainment system, Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005.
In my home network, the Entertainment System box is my gateway to the
internet, via a dial-up connection. I'm in an area where I can't get DSL or
cable.

I've successfully used ICS on 3 different Windows builds over the years,
from Win98 to WinME to WinXP, all setup on the WAN port of routers. This
effectively isolates the Windows box running ICS from the other two computers
I run on the LAN. My WAN IP range is thus controlled by the DHCP service
built into ICS, and I'm free to use anothe IP range on my LAN instead of
192.168.0.x that ICS assigns. There is only this system with it's dial-up
connection on the WAN side; the system is essentially behaving like a slow
DSL modem.

Here's the problem: my brand new Vista Ultimate entertainment system will
not talk reliably to any of the 3 routers I've tried, on EITHER LAN OR WAN!
2 of the 3 routers I have used with my previous XP-based entertainment
system, and they behave just fine. What is it about ICS in Vista that is
preventing me from even accessing the setup for my routers? I've tried
turning off Windows firewall, disabling IPv6 and Network Discovery, etc.
until I'm blue in the face, but nothiing helps. Even if I connect Vista to
the LAN side and set proper static IP to reach router configuration, I'm
denied! I bought a new Belkin wireless N router today, thinking it HAS to
be a compatibility issue, but even this "Vista ready" router will NOT let me
even configure it using the Vista OS.
I sure hope someone can give me some answers that help me understand. I
hate to think I might have to put my XP Media Center box back in the dial-up
sharing position just to get my internet connection back to my other
computers again.

Could one of my issues be that Vista sees BOTH sides of my router, causing a
DHCP conflict of some sort, since DHCP is used to supply my LAN with IP's?
Well shoot, it can't even be that because even if I connect only Vista to the
LAN side and no other connections to the router at all, I still can't
configure it. This goes for a D-Link DI-524 rev. C with most updated
firmware, or a Linksys BEFW11S4, or a brand-new Belkin N.

Ahhh, the frustation of learning the hard way...
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2009
Userlevel6
 

Posts: n/a
RE: Vista ICS flaky network
I forgot to mention a couple more little details...

Vista HAS supplied my DI-524 WAN side with an IP address on at least 2
occasions, but never during a time I'm able to see it happen. I just come
back to the system after several hours, and it's waiting for me to tell it
whether it should call my network private or public. I've been able to name
the LAN Network a couple times, but it soon gets ignored and Vista goes back
to calling my LAN an Unidentified, Public network. GRRRR!

So there have been a couple successes, but the nature of active network
discovery re-scanning and re-identifying things has screwed up those times,
and I can't find a way to force things to stay where they need to be. I'm
assuming this has something to do with the Dial-up connection disconnecting
for 30 seconds every few hours? Maybe that's why the ICS wizard always
leaves the gateway address blank, because it changes with each dial-up
connect and ICS handles that change as it happens? Just a hunch.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2009
Jack-MVP
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Vista ICS flaky network
Hi
Actually my experience shows that ICS is better on Vista than on the
previous Client OS.
Never the less two solution come to mind.
!. Find an old Router that has serial port (The old SMC BR7004 are excellent
Router and have a serial port), and use an External serial port modem.
2. Sometimes this free software Router would do better than ICS (YMMV),
http://www.snapfiles.com/reviews/Ana...y/axproxy.html
Jack (MS, MVP-Networking)

"Userlevel6" <Userlevel6@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:AC9D0C88-D961-412F-A028-0735D314EE2B@microsoft.com...
> Hi! Sorry if this seems long, I'm trying to be as brief as I can...
>
> I just built myself a new Vista Ultimate with SP1 system to take the place
> of my previous entertainment system, Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005.
> In my home network, the Entertainment System box is my gateway to the
> internet, via a dial-up connection. I'm in an area where I can't get DSL
> or
> cable.
>
> I've successfully used ICS on 3 different Windows builds over the years,
> from Win98 to WinME to WinXP, all setup on the WAN port of routers. This
> effectively isolates the Windows box running ICS from the other two
> computers
> I run on the LAN. My WAN IP range is thus controlled by the DHCP service
> built into ICS, and I'm free to use anothe IP range on my LAN instead of
> 192.168.0.x that ICS assigns. There is only this system with it's dial-up
> connection on the WAN side; the system is essentially behaving like a slow
> DSL modem.
>
> Here's the problem: my brand new Vista Ultimate entertainment system will
> not talk reliably to any of the 3 routers I've tried, on EITHER LAN OR
> WAN!
> 2 of the 3 routers I have used with my previous XP-based entertainment
> system, and they behave just fine. What is it about ICS in Vista that is
> preventing me from even accessing the setup for my routers? I've tried
> turning off Windows firewall, disabling IPv6 and Network Discovery, etc.
> until I'm blue in the face, but nothiing helps. Even if I connect Vista
> to
> the LAN side and set proper static IP to reach router configuration, I'm
> denied! I bought a new Belkin wireless N router today, thinking it HAS
> to
> be a compatibility issue, but even this "Vista ready" router will NOT let
> me
> even configure it using the Vista OS.
> I sure hope someone can give me some answers that help me understand. I
> hate to think I might have to put my XP Media Center box back in the
> dial-up
> sharing position just to get my internet connection back to my other
> computers again.
>
> Could one of my issues be that Vista sees BOTH sides of my router, causing
> a
> DHCP conflict of some sort, since DHCP is used to supply my LAN with IP's?
> Well shoot, it can't even be that because even if I connect only Vista to
> the
> LAN side and no other connections to the router at all, I still can't
> configure it. This goes for a D-Link DI-524 rev. C with most updated
> firmware, or a Linksys BEFW11S4, or a brand-new Belkin N.
>
> Ahhh, the frustation of learning the hard way...


Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2009
Userlevel6
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Vista ICS flaky network
Thanks Jack, I appreciate the suggestions. I would hope that ICS is better
on Vista, but so far I'm disappointed that
BUT...I'm still looking for these answers:
1. Why won't Vista communicate reliably with a router that I've verified
has nothing wrong with it? Surely there's SOME way I can turn off or bypass
whatever is blocking my ability to reach router configuration across a static
IP setup.

2. Why won't my LAN connection hold a configuration? It gets re-detected
as a Public network every time my dial-up connection hangs up & re-connects.

Initially I thought things would be fine. After I first put the new system
in place, for the first day I could see the public share on the WAN from my
LAN, from my Windows 2000 box; next day it became impossible. I WAS able to
get to the internet from my LAN boxes too, at first, but this was on & off
with the hang-up & re-connect, automatic re-configuring situation screwing it
up.
There MUST be a way - is it just that Vista knows the difference between
supplying an IP to a computer vs. a router, and has been programmed not to do
it, while all the previous Windows versions would? Why did it work a couple
times but won't stay configured?

I'll probably try the AnalogProxy software. I used to run something like
that before ICS was included. But, if it only works on a LAN and not on the
WAN side, I might as well try ICS on the LAN side only anyway. I'm currently
trying to do that, but so far it isn't working that way either.

"Jack-MVP" wrote:

> Hi
> Actually my experience shows that ICS is better on Vista than on the
> previous Client OS.
> Never the less two solution come to mind.
> !. Find an old Router that has serial port (The old SMC BR7004 are excellent
> Router and have a serial port), and use an External serial port modem.
> 2. Sometimes this free software Router would do better than ICS (YMMV),
> http://www.snapfiles.com/reviews/Ana...y/axproxy.html
> Jack (MS, MVP-Networking)
>
> "Userlevel6" <Userlevel6@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:AC9D0C88-D961-412F-A028-0735D314EE2B@microsoft.com...
> > Hi! Sorry if this seems long, I'm trying to be as brief as I can...
> >
> > I just built myself a new Vista Ultimate with SP1 system to take the place
> > of my previous entertainment system, Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005.
> > In my home network, the Entertainment System box is my gateway to the
> > internet, via a dial-up connection. I'm in an area where I can't get DSL
> > or
> > cable.
> >
> > I've successfully used ICS on 3 different Windows builds over the years,
> > from Win98 to WinME to WinXP, all setup on the WAN port of routers. This
> > effectively isolates the Windows box running ICS from the other two
> > computers
> > I run on the LAN. My WAN IP range is thus controlled by the DHCP service
> > built into ICS, and I'm free to use anothe IP range on my LAN instead of
> > 192.168.0.x that ICS assigns. There is only this system with it's dial-up
> > connection on the WAN side; the system is essentially behaving like a slow
> > DSL modem.
> >
> > Here's the problem: my brand new Vista Ultimate entertainment system will
> > not talk reliably to any of the 3 routers I've tried, on EITHER LAN OR
> > WAN!
> > 2 of the 3 routers I have used with my previous XP-based entertainment
> > system, and they behave just fine. What is it about ICS in Vista that is
> > preventing me from even accessing the setup for my routers? I've tried
> > turning off Windows firewall, disabling IPv6 and Network Discovery, etc.
> > until I'm blue in the face, but nothiing helps. Even if I connect Vista
> > to
> > the LAN side and set proper static IP to reach router configuration, I'm
> > denied! I bought a new Belkin wireless N router today, thinking it HAS
> > to
> > be a compatibility issue, but even this "Vista ready" router will NOT let
> > me
> > even configure it using the Vista OS.
> > I sure hope someone can give me some answers that help me understand. I
> > hate to think I might have to put my XP Media Center box back in the
> > dial-up
> > sharing position just to get my internet connection back to my other
> > computers again.
> >
> > Could one of my issues be that Vista sees BOTH sides of my router, causing
> > a
> > DHCP conflict of some sort, since DHCP is used to supply my LAN with IP's?
> > Well shoot, it can't even be that because even if I connect only Vista to
> > the
> > LAN side and no other connections to the router at all, I still can't
> > configure it. This goes for a D-Link DI-524 rev. C with most updated
> > firmware, or a Linksys BEFW11S4, or a brand-new Belkin N.
> >
> > Ahhh, the frustation of learning the hard way...

>
>

Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2009
Chuck [MVP]
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Vista ICS flaky network
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:03:01 -0700, Userlevel6
<Userlevel6@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>Hi! Sorry if this seems long, I'm trying to be as brief as I can...
>
>I just built myself a new Vista Ultimate with SP1 system to take the place
>of my previous entertainment system, Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005.
>In my home network, the Entertainment System box is my gateway to the
>internet, via a dial-up connection. I'm in an area where I can't get DSL or
>cable.
>
>I've successfully used ICS on 3 different Windows builds over the years,
>from Win98 to WinME to WinXP, all setup on the WAN port of routers. This
>effectively isolates the Windows box running ICS from the other two computers
>I run on the LAN. My WAN IP range is thus controlled by the DHCP service
>built into ICS, and I'm free to use anothe IP range on my LAN instead of
>192.168.0.x that ICS assigns. There is only this system with it's dial-up
>connection on the WAN side; the system is essentially behaving like a slow
>DSL modem.
>
>Here's the problem: my brand new Vista Ultimate entertainment system will
>not talk reliably to any of the 3 routers I've tried, on EITHER LAN OR WAN!
>2 of the 3 routers I have used with my previous XP-based entertainment
>system, and they behave just fine. What is it about ICS in Vista that is
>preventing me from even accessing the setup for my routers? I've tried
>turning off Windows firewall, disabling IPv6 and Network Discovery, etc.
>until I'm blue in the face, but nothiing helps. Even if I connect Vista to
>the LAN side and set proper static IP to reach router configuration, I'm
>denied! I bought a new Belkin wireless N router today, thinking it HAS to
>be a compatibility issue, but even this "Vista ready" router will NOT let me
>even configure it using the Vista OS.
>I sure hope someone can give me some answers that help me understand. I
>hate to think I might have to put my XP Media Center box back in the dial-up
>sharing position just to get my internet connection back to my other
>computers again.
>
>Could one of my issues be that Vista sees BOTH sides of my router, causing a
>DHCP conflict of some sort, since DHCP is used to supply my LAN with IP's?
>Well shoot, it can't even be that because even if I connect only Vista to the
>LAN side and no other connections to the router at all, I still can't
>configure it. This goes for a D-Link DI-524 rev. C with most updated
>firmware, or a Linksys BEFW11S4, or a brand-new Belkin N.
>
>Ahhh, the frustation of learning the hard way...


>I've tried turning off Windows firewall, disabling IPv6 and Network Discovery,
>etc. until I'm blue in the face, but nothiing helps.


Have you checked the Scalable Networking options under Vista? Some of them,
when enabled and with routers that don't support Vista properly, will affect
both LAN and WAN access.

http://networking.nitecruzr.net/2008...etworking.html

--
Cheers,
Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2008 [Windows - Desktop Experience]
http://networking.nitecruzr.net/
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2009
Userlevel6
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Vista ICS flaky network
Thanks for the links Chuck, I'm doing some reading. I found this
interesting...
http://networking.nitecruzr.net/2008...ans.html#links
It's what I've been doing for years, only with a router and a system sharing
a dial-up connection. I've remembered I used something called Freeway, or
Freetrain or something like that years ago. I thought it was relatively
simple, but apparently not so anymore.


"Chuck [MVP]" wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:03:01 -0700, Userlevel6
> <Userlevel6@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi! Sorry if this seems long, I'm trying to be as brief as I can...
> >
> >I just built myself a new Vista Ultimate with SP1 system to take the place
> >of my previous entertainment system, Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005.
> >In my home network, the Entertainment System box is my gateway to the
> >internet, via a dial-up connection. I'm in an area where I can't get DSL or
> >cable.
> >
> >I've successfully used ICS on 3 different Windows builds over the years,
> >from Win98 to WinME to WinXP, all setup on the WAN port of routers. This
> >effectively isolates the Windows box running ICS from the other two computers
> >I run on the LAN. My WAN IP range is thus controlled by the DHCP service
> >built into ICS, and I'm free to use anothe IP range on my LAN instead of
> >192.168.0.x that ICS assigns. There is only this system with it's dial-up
> >connection on the WAN side; the system is essentially behaving like a slow
> >DSL modem.
> >
> >Here's the problem: my brand new Vista Ultimate entertainment system will
> >not talk reliably to any of the 3 routers I've tried, on EITHER LAN OR WAN!
> >2 of the 3 routers I have used with my previous XP-based entertainment
> >system, and they behave just fine. What is it about ICS in Vista that is
> >preventing me from even accessing the setup for my routers? I've tried
> >turning off Windows firewall, disabling IPv6 and Network Discovery, etc.
> >until I'm blue in the face, but nothiing helps. Even if I connect Vista to
> >the LAN side and set proper static IP to reach router configuration, I'm
> >denied! I bought a new Belkin wireless N router today, thinking it HAS to
> >be a compatibility issue, but even this "Vista ready" router will NOT let me
> >even configure it using the Vista OS.
> >I sure hope someone can give me some answers that help me understand. I
> >hate to think I might have to put my XP Media Center box back in the dial-up
> >sharing position just to get my internet connection back to my other
> >computers again.
> >
> >Could one of my issues be that Vista sees BOTH sides of my router, causing a
> >DHCP conflict of some sort, since DHCP is used to supply my LAN with IP's?
> >Well shoot, it can't even be that because even if I connect only Vista to the
> >LAN side and no other connections to the router at all, I still can't
> >configure it. This goes for a D-Link DI-524 rev. C with most updated
> >firmware, or a Linksys BEFW11S4, or a brand-new Belkin N.
> >
> >Ahhh, the frustation of learning the hard way...

>
> >I've tried turning off Windows firewall, disabling IPv6 and Network Discovery,
> >etc. until I'm blue in the face, but nothiing helps.

>
> Have you checked the Scalable Networking options under Vista? Some of them,
> when enabled and with routers that don't support Vista properly, will affect
> both LAN and WAN access.
>
> http://networking.nitecruzr.net/2008...etworking.html
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2008 [Windows - Desktop Experience]
> http://networking.nitecruzr.net/
>

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2009
Userlevel6
 

Posts: n/a
RE: Vista ICS flaky network
http://www.chicagotech.net/vista/uni...irdnetwork.htm

....may have pushed me in the right direction. I took another look at my NIC
and noticed the driver date looked old, and the Rollback Driver button was
available, so on a whim I pushed it expecting to get an even older driver.
In popped a newer driver and computers on my LAN started arriving in Network,
along with my D-Link DI-524 router! So now...back to re-defaulting
everything and re-testing the WAN side method I'm accustomed to. I'll report
back the results ASAP.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2009
Userlevel6
 

Posts: n/a
RE: Vista ICS flaky network
Well, I have a network again, but not the way I want it.
-Router DHCP turned off
-Vista ICS now providing addresses to the LAN
-Vista still calls my LAN an "Unidentified Network" unless I turn off ICS
and re-enable DHCP in the router.

-Still cannot get ICS to supply an address to the WAN side of the router if
I try. This has always been a little hit & miss though, even on XP. It has
always worked for me eventually, but rarely does it work right after I set it
up.

So at least I can get to the internet from my other computers now, but it
bothers me that my LAN is now closer to being exposed to the internet than it
is when my ICS computer is connected to the WAN port. And, it bothers me
that everyone in the world is aware of the 192.168.0.x range my LAN is forced
to use now, AND that Vista won't let me change the "Unidentified Network"
under the LAN-only configuration.
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