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With Vista using file shares is next to unusable!

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-06-2008
Michael Moser
 

Posts: n/a
With Vista using file shares is next to unusable!
With my Vista laptop practically every day getting access to several
file shares that are on a Windows XP box causes me a major
headache. Every other day or so it takes me at least 15 minutes to
finally get access to a share that I need for my daily work.

Initially the system often reports, that it couldn't find the other
system (which is a clear lie, since one can perfectly ping the other
side, even by system name, not just by IP address) or it reports
right away that access was denied (without even asking for a pwd).

I then usually delete all cached credentials (using "net use * /d").
This at least triggers, that the login dialog pops up again when trying
to open a share on the other system, but even though the user id
and the pwd are clearly correct, the response is normally "logon
unsuccessful - check ... ". Usually after dozens of attempts at some
point things then suddenly work again, sometimes I have to wait
for like half an hour and then try again, but I haven't yet been
able to figure out, why and when. And esp. not been able to
reliably reproduce this and getting it working in a controlled way
and right away.

This endless begging and wondering every morning is driving me
nuts!

Michael


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-06-2008
Robert L. \(MS-MVP\)
 

Posts: n/a
Re: With Vista using file shares is next to unusable!
I am not sue what give you the problem, but you may try to create the same
username with the password on both computer. Or disable UAC.

--
Bob Lin, MS-MVP, MCSE & CNE
Networking, Internet, Routing, VPN Troubleshooting on
http://www.ChicagoTech.net
How to Setup Windows, Network, VPN & Remote Access on
http://www.HowToNetworking.com


"Michael Moser" <michael-nospam.moser@nospam.freesurf.ch> wrote in message
news:O3c68UKaIHA.5768@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> With my Vista laptop practically every day getting access to several
> file shares that are on a Windows XP box causes me a major
> headache. Every other day or so it takes me at least 15 minutes to
> finally get access to a share that I need for my daily work.
>
> Initially the system often reports, that it couldn't find the other
> system (which is a clear lie, since one can perfectly ping the other
> side, even by system name, not just by IP address) or it reports
> right away that access was denied (without even asking for a pwd).
>
> I then usually delete all cached credentials (using "net use * /d").
> This at least triggers, that the login dialog pops up again when trying
> to open a share on the other system, but even though the user id
> and the pwd are clearly correct, the response is normally "logon
> unsuccessful - check ... ". Usually after dozens of attempts at some
> point things then suddenly work again, sometimes I have to wait
> for like half an hour and then try again, but I haven't yet been
> able to figure out, why and when. And esp. not been able to
> reliably reproduce this and getting it working in a controlled way
> and right away.
>
> This endless begging and wondering every morning is driving me
> nuts!
>
> Michael
>
>


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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2008
Mick Murphy
 

Posts: n/a
RE: With Vista using file shares is next to unusable!
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l.../bb727037.aspx

Have a read of the above link re Vista File and Printer Sharing.

How to give Permissions are there, too.

If you are running Norton, Trend Micro, McAfee, etc’s Firewall, check its
settings to make sure it allows file and printer sharing..

1st thing to do is make sure that the Workgroup Name of ALL the computers is
the SAME.

In Vista Network and Sharing:

Network Discovery: ON (So it can see the other computers)

Network set to Private (Public is for hotspots, airports, etc)

File Sharing: ON

Public Folder Sharing: ON (Vista’s Public Folder is the same as XP’s Shared
Docs)

Password Protected: OFF (unless you want to set up identical usernames and
passwords on ALL computers in your Network) If you have it ON, you will be
asked for a username and password when you try to access a Vista computer
from an XP computer.

Also, run the XP’s Home Network File and Printer sharing Wizard.


"Michael Moser" wrote:

> With my Vista laptop practically every day getting access to several
> file shares that are on a Windows XP box causes me a major
> headache. Every other day or so it takes me at least 15 minutes to
> finally get access to a share that I need for my daily work.
>
> Initially the system often reports, that it couldn't find the other
> system (which is a clear lie, since one can perfectly ping the other
> side, even by system name, not just by IP address) or it reports
> right away that access was denied (without even asking for a pwd).
>
> I then usually delete all cached credentials (using "net use * /d").
> This at least triggers, that the login dialog pops up again when trying
> to open a share on the other system, but even though the user id
> and the pwd are clearly correct, the response is normally "logon
> unsuccessful - check ... ". Usually after dozens of attempts at some
> point things then suddenly work again, sometimes I have to wait
> for like half an hour and then try again, but I haven't yet been
> able to figure out, why and when. And esp. not been able to
> reliably reproduce this and getting it working in a controlled way
> and right away.
>
> This endless begging and wondering every morning is driving me
> nuts!
>
> Michael
>
>
>

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2008
Michael Moser
 

Posts: n/a
Re: With Vista using file shares is next to unusable!
Thanks but - sorry - your description and hints seem to cover the
inverse case. I am trying to access files on an XP box from a Vista
laptop (not the other way round).

I am using the MS firewall (on both systems), the two systems are both
in workgroup "WORKGROUP" and there is the same user-ID on both, but with
different passwords. I don't see, why the latter poses such a problem
(if it is the reason for the problem...). If the system asks me for
user-id and pwd OF THE OTHER system, then I enter the correct one, but I
still get a "Logon unsuccessful: be sure user name and password are
correct" in 95% of the cases. They ARE correct!!!! Ggrrrrr!

And what I especially don't get with this Vista networking: Why are
things different each time? Wouldn't one expect, that if things worked
one day and one disconnects and reconnects the next morning, that all
settings are the same? Why is it, that I have to bow towards Seattle 100
times every morning to obtain access again, even if I didn't change
ANYTHING on neither system in the meantime?

A typical idiocy every morning is also that again and again it considers
the network "public" again even though I declared it private the other
day. If this things caches all kind of settings, why can't it cache the
important ones???

Starting to get really pissed off... Dealing with shares always was
already a hassle already with XP but with Vista it's a real nightmare!
Michael

Mick Murphy wrote:
> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l.../bb727037.aspx
>
> Have a read of the above link re Vista File and Printer Sharing.
>
> How to give Permissions are there, too.
>
> If you are running Norton, Trend Micro, McAfee, etc’s Firewall, check
> its settings to make sure it allows file and printer sharing..
>
> 1st thing to do is make sure that the Workgroup Name of ALL the
> computers is the SAME.
>
> In Vista Network and Sharing:
>
> Network Discovery: ON (So it can see the other computers)
>
> Network set to Private (Public is for hotspots, airports, etc)
>
> File Sharing: ON
>
> Public Folder Sharing: ON (Vista’s Public Folder is the same as XP’s
> Shared Docs)
>
> Password Protected: OFF (unless you want to set up identical
> usernames and passwords on ALL computers in your Network) If you have
> it ON, you will be asked for a username and password when you try to
> access a Vista computer from an XP computer.
>
> Also, run the XP’s Home Network File and Printer sharing Wizard.
>
>
> "Michael Moser" wrote:
>
>> With my Vista laptop practically every day getting access to several
>> file shares that are on a Windows XP box causes me a major
>> headache. Every other day or so it takes me at least 15 minutes to
>> finally get access to a share that I need for my daily work.
>>
>> Initially the system often reports, that it couldn't find the other
>> system (which is a clear lie, since one can perfectly ping the other
>> side, even by system name, not just by IP address) or it reports
>> right away that access was denied (without even asking for a pwd).
>>
>> I then usually delete all cached credentials (using "net use * /d").
>> This at least triggers, that the login dialog pops up again when
>> trying to open a share on the other system, but even though the user
>> id
>> and the pwd are clearly correct, the response is normally "logon
>> unsuccessful - check ... ". Usually after dozens of attempts at some
>> point things then suddenly work again, sometimes I have to wait
>> for like half an hour and then try again, but I haven't yet been
>> able to figure out, why and when. And esp. not been able to
>> reliably reproduce this and getting it working in a controlled way
>> and right away.
>>
>> This endless begging and wondering every morning is driving me
>> nuts!
>>
>> Michael


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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2008
Malke
 

Posts: n/a
Re: With Vista using file shares is next to unusable!
Michael Moser wrote:
> Thanks but - sorry - your description and hints seem to cover the
> inverse case. I am trying to access files on an XP box from a Vista
> laptop (not the other way round).
>
> I am using the MS firewall (on both systems), the two systems are both
> in workgroup "WORKGROUP" and there is the same user-ID on both, but with
> different passwords. I don't see, why the latter poses such a problem
> (if it is the reason for the problem...). If the system asks me for
> user-id and pwd OF THE OTHER system, then I enter the correct one, but I
> still get a "Logon unsuccessful: be sure user name and password are
> correct" in 95% of the cases. They ARE correct!!!! Ggrrrrr!


(snippage)

You must use the same passwords and the same user accounts. Of course it
makes a difference. The ones you are entering are *not* correct if they
are different. In a peer-to-peer network (no server), authentication is
done on the local machine since there is no domain controller. This
means that the machine hosting the shared resource must have the
identical user account with identical password on it to authorize access
from the machine requesting the resource. User account "John" with
password 1234 is *not* the same as user account "John" with password
5678 and therefore authorization will be denied. Go through the
following general network troubleshooting steps systematically. I
understand you are frustrated but you *are* doing something wrong and
no, setting up a Vista-to-XP network is not difficult and normally takes
about 5 minutes with only two machines.

*****
Here are general network troubleshooting steps. Not everything may be
applicable to your situation, so just take the bits that are. It may
look daunting, but if you follow the steps at the links and suggestions
below systematically and calmly, you will have no difficulty in setting
up your sharing.

Excellent, thorough, yet easy to understand article about File/Printer
Sharing in Vista. Includes details about sharing printers as well as
files and folders:

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l.../bb727037.aspx

For XP, start by running the Network Setup Wizard on all machines (see
caveat in Item A below).

Problems sharing files between computers on a network are generally
caused by 1) a misconfigured firewall; or 2) inadvertently running two
firewalls such as the built-in Windows Firewall and a third-party
firewall; and/or 3) not having identical user accounts and passwords on
all Workgroup machines; 4) trying to create shares where the operating
system does not permit it.

For XP and Windows 2003 Server, MVP Hans-Georg Michna has an excellent
small network troubleshooter. It may also be useful with Vista.

http://winhlp.com/wxnet.htm

Here are some general networking tips for home/small networks:

A. Configure firewalls on all machines to allow the Local Area Network
(LAN) traffic as trusted. With Windows Firewall, this means allowing
File/Printer Sharing on the Exceptions tab. Normally running the Network
Setup Wizard on XP will take care of this for those machines.The only
"gotcha" is that this will turn on the XPSP2 Windows Firewall. If you
aren't running a third-party firewall or have an antivirus with
"Internet Worm Protection" (like Norton 2006/07) which acts as a
firewall, then you're fine. With third-party firewalls, I usually
configure the LAN allowance with an IP range. Ex. would be
192.168.1.0-192.168.1.254. Obviously you would substitute your correct
subnet. Do not run more than one firewall.

B. For ease of organization, put all computers in the same Workgroup.
This is done from the System applet in Control Panel, Computer Name tab.

C. Create matching user accounts and passwords on all machines. You do
not need to be logged into the same account on all machines and the
passwords assigned to each user account can be different; the
accounts/passwords just need to exist and match on all machines. If you
wish a machine to boot directly to the Desktop (into one particular
user's account) for convenience, you can do this. The instructions at
this link work for both XP and Vista:

Configure Windows to Automatically Login (MVP Ramesh) -
http://windowsxp.mvps.org/Autologon.htm

D. If one or more of the computers is XP Pro or Media Center:

1. If you need Pro's ability to set fine-grained permissions, turn off
Simple File Sharing (Folder Options>View tab) and create identical user
accounts/passwords on all computers.

2. If you don't care about using Pro's advanced features, leave the
Simple File Sharing enabled. Simple File Sharing means that Guest
(network) is enabled. This means that anyone without a user account on
the target system can use its resources. This is a security hole but
only you can decide if it matters in your situation.

E. Create shares as desired. XP Home does not permit sharing of users'
home directories (My Documents) or Program Files, but you can share
folders inside those directories. A better choice is to simply use the
Shared Documents folder. See the first link above for details about
Vista sharing.
*****

Get the network sharing set up correctly and your network will not reset
itself to Public.


Malke
--
Elephant Boy Computers
www.elephantboycomputers.com
"Don't Panic!"
MS-MVP
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2008
Michael Moser
 

Posts: n/a
Re: With Vista using file shares is next to unusable!
Malke wrote:
>...
> You must use the same passwords and the same user accounts. Of course
> it makes a difference. The ones you are entering are *not* correct if
> they are different. In a peer-to-peer network (no server),
> authentication is done on the local machine since there is no domain
> controller. This means that the machine hosting the shared resource
> must have the identical user account with identical password on it to
> authorize access from the machine requesting the resource. User
> account "John" with password 1234 is *not* the same as user account
> "John" with password 5678 and therefore authorization will be denied.


This is obviously *not* correct! How could the local machine decide
whether a user-id and the account is valid on the *other* machine? This
would widely open all doors for intrusions and other malicious
activities. A connecting system clearly has to send the credentials over
to the other system, so that they can be validated *there* and
consequential access be granted or not. Or why would Windows else
ever need to ask for credentials when accessing some share, if it could
only handle that <same workgroup plus same user-id plus same pwd>-case?

I regularly access shares on other system (using Ethernet and Wireless
LAN) where I have different user-ids and/or different passwords (and
on some I *do* have the same user-id but different passwords!). It is
always only, if I need to connect via Bluetooth (i.e. if there is no
other networking infrastrcture) that I have such headaches with
authentication!

The problem seems to be, that Windows (XP and Vista) does some
stupid business in *caching* things, i.e. if it finds credentials for a
(supposedly) already known device it tries these and if things fail
using these, it immediately reports "access denied" instead of asking
for the credentials (that might have changed since the last access)
again.

These cached ids and credentials are a constant nuissance! I have
already scripts to automatically delete them whenever I reconnect the
two systems. While these often help, alas, too often that seems to be
not enough. There must be some further mechanism, that likes to
interfere here...

And Vista even worsened things with this absolutely idiotic
classification of networks into "Local only" and "Local and Internet"
which it tends to get practically always wrong, esp. on multi-homed
machines (i.e. machines with multiple network interfaces). I always have
to endlessly fiddle with de- and re-activating network adapters,
changing "Public networks" into "Private networks" and "Merging
networks" (what a fantasticly studpid idea!!!) and what not, until - at
some point - Vista finally decides to cooperate.

Michael

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2008
Malke
 

Posts: n/a
Re: With Vista using file shares is next to unusable!
Michael Moser wrote:

> This is obviously *not* correct! How could the local machine decide
> whether a user-id and the account is valid on the *other* machine? This
> would widely open all doors for intrusions and other malicious
> activities.


(snip rant)

You have it wrong. It is you who does not understand networking. Local
authentication doesn't have anything to do with deciding if anything is
valid for a different computer. It only decides for itself. That's what
"local" means.

There is no point in going on with this in a newsgroup. Much as I would love
to help you - and could probably straighten out your network in a very few
minutes if I were there (as could any competent computer tech) - there
really isn't anything further I can do for you in a newsgroup. You cannot
or will not understand. There is nothing wrong with networking in any of
the Windows operating systems - they all network with each other fairly
easily and seamlessly.

I'm very sorry that I was unable to help you. You should have a local
professional come on-site and set you up.

EOT for me.

Malke
--
MS-MVP
Elephant Boy Computers
www.elephantboycomputers.com
Don't Panic!
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2008
Michael Moser
 

Posts: n/a
Re: With Vista using file shares is next to unusable!
OK - let's drop the ranting and get to facts:

So you *are* claiming that if I am logged in on system A having a userid
"X" with password "foo" that I can not access a share on system B with
userid "X" and password "bar"?

Michael

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