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Vista Boot Files

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2007
Daarrheel
 

Posts: n/a
Vista Boot Files
I want to make a Boot Disk for Vista... what are the Boot files needed for
this ?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2007
PvdG42
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Vista Boot Files

"Daarrheel" <Daarrheel@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8CBEFAFD-8608-42FF-86A8-28C3B528D9B5@microsoft.com...
>I want to make a Boot Disk for Vista... what are the Boot files needed for
> this ?


Type "create boot disk" into your Windows Explorer Help search window and
read the first article in the list, entitled: "Create a Boot Disk (Startup
Disk)".
That will tell you what you need to know.

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2007
Andrew McLaren
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Vista Boot Files
"PvdG42" <pvdg@toadstool.edu> wrote...
> "Daarrheel" <Daarrheel@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote...
>>I want to make a Boot Disk for Vista... what are the Boot files needed for
>> this ?

>
> Type "create boot disk" into your Windows Explorer Help search window and
> read the first article in the list, entitled: "Create a Boot Disk (Startup
> Disk)". That will tell you what you need to know.


That's totally correct. In Explorer, just right-click on a floppy, choose
Format, and check the "create boot disk" checkbox. Be aware however, this
will actually create an MS-DOS boot disk - it won't boot up Vista, as such.

DOS Boot disks are pretty handy for flashing BIOS, etc. But you won't be
able to access any NTFS drives, run the Vista GUI, etc.

Like XP, Vista is not designed to be booted from removable media - it is
meant to boot from a hard disk permanently installed in a machine. Given
Microsoft's commercial desire to tightly "bond" software to a specific
hardware device via Activation, etc, they haven't put much effort into
supporting the boot disk scenario. The Embedded version of XP can certainly
boot from removeable media, so there's no major technical impediment - just
some fine-tuning. But as I say, Microsoft don't seem very interested in
making that effort.

There were a number of unofficial hacks which tried to create boot disks for
Windows XP. None of them are supported by Microsoft (of course) and they
would make your system totally unsupported, in the official sense. But some
seem to work okay, like Nu2, aka Bart. They may have been updated for
Vista - try Google.

You can also boot up into Vista from the Vista installation DVD. Choose the
"repair" option and then select "Command Prompt". You don't get the full
GUI, but you can lauch many GUI apps (like Notepad etc) from the command
line; plus you can see all your NTFS drives, printers and stuff. This is a
*huge* improvement in Vista over XP.

Hope it helps,
Andrew

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2007
Mike Brannigan
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Vista Boot Files
"Andrew McLaren" <andrew@fakeaddress.com> wrote in message
news:6F5A4F92-5154-4035-9470-34E235072BB6@microsoft.com...
> "PvdG42" <pvdg@toadstool.edu> wrote...
>> "Daarrheel" <Daarrheel@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote...
>>>I want to make a Boot Disk for Vista... what are the Boot files needed
>>>for
>>> this ?

>>
>> Type "create boot disk" into your Windows Explorer Help search window and
>> read the first article in the list, entitled: "Create a Boot Disk
>> (Startup Disk)". That will tell you what you need to know.

>
> That's totally correct. In Explorer, just right-click on a floppy, choose
> Format, and check the "create boot disk" checkbox. Be aware however, this
> will actually create an MS-DOS boot disk - it won't boot up Vista, as
> such.
>
> DOS Boot disks are pretty handy for flashing BIOS, etc. But you won't be
> able to access any NTFS drives, run the Vista GUI, etc.
>
> Like XP, Vista is not designed to be booted from removable media - it is
> meant to boot from a hard disk permanently installed in a machine. Given
> Microsoft's commercial desire to tightly "bond" software to a specific
> hardware device via Activation, etc, they haven't put much effort into
> supporting the boot disk scenario. The Embedded version of XP can
> certainly boot from removeable media, so there's no major technical
> impediment - just some fine-tuning. But as I say, Microsoft don't seem
> very interested in making that effort.
>
> There were a number of unofficial hacks which tried to create boot disks
> for Windows XP. None of them are supported by Microsoft (of course) and
> they would make your system totally unsupported, in the official sense.
> But some seem to work okay, like Nu2, aka Bart. They may have been updated
> for Vista - try Google.
>
> You can also boot up into Vista from the Vista installation DVD. Choose
> the "repair" option and then select "Command Prompt". You don't get the
> full GUI, but you can lauch many GUI apps (like Notepad etc) from the
> command line; plus you can see all your NTFS drives, printers and stuff.
> This is a *huge* improvement in Vista over XP.
>
> Hope it helps,
> Andrew
>


Andrew,

Actually there is a huge move forward in support for end users creating
bootable media (CD/DVD) without having to resort to hacks, pseudo unlicesed
products (e.g. Barts) or the use of Embedded operating systems.
Windows PE is now available to all users (it used to be only available to
volume licensed customers). Windows PE is the tools for building a bootable
operating system on removable media for what ever task you wish to perform.
Windows PE is part of the WAIK and there is plenty of information on
Microsoft.com about building your own PE media.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/w.../aa905120.aspx
--

Mike Brannigan

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2007
Andrew McLaren
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Vista Boot Files
"Mike Brannigan" <Mike.Brannigan@localhost> wrote ..

> Windows PE is now available to all users (it used to be only available to
> volume licensed customers). Windows PE is the tools for building a
> bootable


Thanks, Mike - I stand corrected. Yes, there is also Windows PE (I was also
fortunate to have access to XP WinPE, via my job).

In fairness to myself, though (or am I being too defensive? :-) ... PE gives
you a *very* reduced Windows environment, even in the Vista version. It's
basically equivalent to booting from the Vista installation media and going
to a command prompt. There's no full Explorer shell. There's no .NET
Framework. WMI is a bit better than it was under XP. There is no NTVDM for
16-bit apps. Networking is limited, there's no Server service. You can't
print. And of course ... PE automatically reboots after 24 hours!! So you
don't want to rely on it for any long-running tasks.

But, you can run multiple Win32 apps, access NTFS drives and network shares,
repartiton and reformat disks, etc etc,. So yes, PE is a brilliant useful
tool.

Cheers
Andrew

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2007
Darrell Gorter[MSFT]
 

Posts: n/a
RE: Vista Boot Files
Hello,
The real question here is what do you want the boot disk to be able to do?
People usually have specific ideas about what a boot disk is and what they
want to do with it.
There are options for creating "boot disk" but they can do different things
and without knowing what use you plan to make with the boot disk it's hard
to say whether or not you can achieve what you are wanting to do.
Thanks,
Darrell Gorter[MSFT]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights
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|> Thread-Topic: Vista Boot Files
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|> X-WBNR-Posting-Host: 67.185.177.88
|> From: =?Utf-8?B?RGFhcnJoZWVs?= <Daarrheel@discussions.microsoft.com>
|> Subject: Vista Boot Files
|> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:58:00 -0700
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|> I want to make a Boot Disk for Vista... what are the Boot files needed
for
|> this ?
|>

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2007
cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Vista Boot Files
On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 01:06:58 GMT, ("Darrell Gorter[MSFT]") wrote:

>The real question here is what do you want the boot disk to be able to do?
>People usually have specific ideas about what a boot disk is and what they
>want to do with it.


Oh please, can I jump in here?

I'd like a boot disk from which I can maintain Vista systems, i.e.
pull data off them, test their hard drives via HD Tune, scan for
malware and so on.

I've got the WAIK and have made a generic WinPE 2.0 CDR with that, and
I've used the generic OEM Vista DVD and am glad it can boot into a
maintenance OS command prompt.

I'm also glad I can eject the boot CDR or DVD and use other optical
disks, as well as hot-swap USB sticks and storage.

But I haven't been able to run arbitrary programs effectively, even
when these don't require "installation", as I've been able to do with
Bart PE for XP. I can swap CDs and run the Bart CDR's UI (a pop-up
menu, rather like Start) but most tools don't take.

This is for 32-bit Vista; 64-bit is worse, as the DVD's mOS mode won't
run 32-bit apps at all.

Where I can I read up on:
- why apps don't work (i.e. is it an "admin rights" thing?)?
- how to integrate apps into WinPE 2.0?

Seems a lot harder than Bart's .inf/XML system, which was hard enough
:-)

Example apps I want to run, are:
- www.hdtune.com
- Trend SysClean
- various 32-bit CLI scanners
- www.nirsoft.net tools

I know that registry-aware tools would need something like RunScanner
(a plugin for Bart). Is there such a thing for Vista?



>------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

The most accurate diagnostic instrument
in medicine is the Retrospectoscope
>------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2007
Andrew McLaren
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Vista Boot Files
There's a fairly useful (if rather high-level) discussion of PE limitations,
here:

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/w.../aa905120.aspx

That might shed some light.

Hope it helps a bit,
Andrew

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2007
cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Vista Boot Files
On Mon, 2 Jul 2007 18:14:45 +1000, "Andrew McLaren"

>There's a fairly useful (if rather high-level) discussion of PE limitations,
>here:
>
> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/w.../aa905120.aspx
>
>That might shed some light.


Thanks! The title looks familiar (tho the blue looks new)... it's
been a while since I read this (if it is indeed the same one) and I've
had more hands-on, so it's worth reading again. I'll quote as I go...

"Recovery.

Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) and Independent
Software Vendors (ISVs) can use Windows PE to build
customized, automated solutions for recovering and
rebuilding computers running Windows Vista. For example,
users could start their computers from Windows PE recovery
CDs or recovery partitions to automatically reformat their hard
disks and re-install Windows Vista with the original drivers,
settings, and applications."

At this point, we kinda feel we're doomed.

To most of us, "recovery" means data recovery, i.e. doing as little as
possible to put at-risk HD contents in the line of fire, and using
cautious tools that can salvage these contents.

But to OEMs with "vendor-vision", all "recovery" means is "wipe away
everything the user may have, and stamp our original factory build
back in place, thus discharging our only service obligation".

That's a bit like asking the mob to run your neighborhood watch.


"Windows PE is not a full-featured operating system"

That's a GOOD thing; neither is Bart. For safety, you want less
automatic activity and risk taking, and less exploitable surface.

But it can be hard to judge what to cut and what to include.


"Like Windows Vista, Windows PE can be contained
within a WIM file. However, when you store a Windows
Vista image in a WIM file, the only way to start Windows
Vista is to copy the image to the computer’s hard disk.
Windows PE, however, can start directly from a WIM file
without being copied to a hard disk. This functionality
enables you to create a WIM file, store it on bootable
media such as a CD or USB flash drive, and start
Windows PE directly from that medium."

That bit is worth reading again, as it implies one may be able to
generate a WinPE from a Vista installation. If so, this could greatly
simplify the integration of tools (which ranges from mildly to very
hard in Bart, and seems beyond my reach in WinPE).

One may be able to:
- install Vista
- install the tools you want
- capture the installation, setting the boot flag
- use as a WinPE maintenance OS, populated with tools

Looks too good to be true, but imagine if it was that easy?


There's a section on using PE for recovery and maintenance, but it is
strikingly shallow. It's like saying "PCs are really neat because you
can write letters in Notepad and print them out"...

"Examples of troubleshooting tasks include:

Replacing system files. You can replace corrupted files
from the original installation media.

Recovering data before reinstalling Windows. Windows
PE provides full access to both FAT and NTFS file systems.
In circumstances where you must replace or reformat a
hard disk, you can start the computer with Windows PE first,
and then copy important files to another disk

Running diagnostic and configuration tools. ( ... )
Built-in tools include:

Diskpart.

Drvload. You use the drvload command to add device drivers

Net.

Netcfg."

There's nothing on the stuff I have to do all the time, i.e. run
3rd-party hard drive diagnostics, data recovery tools, multiple
sequential malware scanners that work relative to the installation's
registry, and run 3rd-party integration managers.

They're still talking "pick-up sticks", copying files one at a time
from a command line.


At this point, I might sound a bit negative - but there's much to like
about WinPE 2.0; many things they got right...
- runs in RAM, allows changing of optical disks
- includes firewall
- hot-detect generic USB storage devices
- boot from USB as well as optical disks
....none of which Bart can do.

This is where I come unstuck:

"Although Windows PE is designed to be small, it contains
much of the core functionality of Windows Vista. Because
Windows PE supports Win32 (just like Microsoft Windows XP
and Windows Vista), most Windows applications will run in
Windows PE. This means that developers in your IT
department can use tools such as Microsoft Visual Studio to
create Win32 applications that run on Windows PE."

AFAIK, WinPE built for Vista-64 does not run 32-bit code, and my main
problem with WinPE has been an inability to run the tools I need.

A second problem - which requires a bit more "thinking outside the
(pre-installation) box" than "look, we can copy files around!" - is
the matter of providing programs with transparent access to the HD
installation's registry hives as if they were in effect.

That takes a fair bit of thoughtful design, and Paraglider seems to
have anticipated and caterred for most of that in his RunScanner
plug-in for Bart. To replace Bart on Vista (as I would hope to do),
WinPE really needs this functionality.

Perhaps I should search the developers' parts of MS's site to look for
notes on how one could "use tools such as Microsoft Visual Studio to
create Win32 applications that run on Windows PE", as this is where
reasons why things don't work may be spelled out?

Of the limitations stated here, only this...

"Because Windows on Windows (WOW) is not supported,
16-bit applications won’t run in 32-bit versions of Windows
PE, and 32-bit applications won’t run in 64-bit versions of
Windows PE."

....explains some of my disappointing mileage, and only for Vista-64.

It's a good article, though not rich in links. For example, I'd have
loved a link from "use tools such as Microsoft Visual Studio to create
Win32 applications that run on Windows PE" :-)



>--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -

Who is General Failure and
why is he reading my disk?
>--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2007
Mujeeb Siddiqui
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Vista Boot Files


"cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)" wrote:

> On Mon, 2 Jul 2007 18:14:45 +1000, "Andrew McLaren"
>
> >There's a fairly useful (if rather high-level) discussion of PE limitations,
> >here:
> >
> > http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/w.../aa905120.aspx
> >
> >That might shed some light.

>
> Thanks! The title looks familiar (tho the blue looks new)... it's
> been a while since I read this (if it is indeed the same one) and I've
> had more hands-on, so it's worth reading again. I'll quote as I go...
>
> "Recovery.
>
> Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) and Independent
> Software Vendors (ISVs) can use Windows PE to build
> customized, automated solutions for recovering and
> rebuilding computers running Windows Vista. For example,
> users could start their computers from Windows PE recovery
> CDs or recovery partitions to automatically reformat their hard
> disks and re-install Windows Vista with the original drivers,
> settings, and applications."
>
> At this point, we kinda feel we're doomed.
>
> To most of us, "recovery" means data recovery, i.e. doing as little as
> possible to put at-risk HD contents in the line of fire, and using
> cautious tools that can salvage these contents.
>
> But to OEMs with "vendor-vision", all "recovery" means is "wipe away
> everything the user may have, and stamp our original factory build
> back in place, thus discharging our only service obligation".
>
> That's a bit like asking the mob to run your neighborhood watch.
>
>
> "Windows PE is not a full-featured operating system"
>
> That's a GOOD thing; neither is Bart. For safety, you want less
> automatic activity and risk taking, and less exploitable surface.
>
> But it can be hard to judge what to cut and what to include.
>
>
> "Like Windows Vista, Windows PE can be contained
> within a WIM file. However, when you store a Windows
> Vista image in a WIM file, the only way to start Windows
> Vista is to copy the image to the computer’s hard disk.
> Windows PE, however, can start directly from a WIM file
> without being copied to a hard disk. This functionality
> enables you to create a WIM file, store it on bootable
> media such as a CD or USB flash drive, and start
> Windows PE directly from that medium."
>
> That bit is worth reading again, as it implies one may be able to
> generate a WinPE from a Vista installation. If so, this could greatly
> simplify the integration of tools (which ranges from mildly to very
> hard in Bart, and seems beyond my reach in WinPE).
>
> One may be able to:
> - install Vista
> - install the tools you want
> - capture the installation, setting the boot flag
> - use as a WinPE maintenance OS, populated with tools
>
> Looks too good to be true, but imagine if it was that easy?
>
>
> There's a section on using PE for recovery and maintenance, but it is
> strikingly shallow. It's like saying "PCs are really neat because you
> can write letters in Notepad and print them out"...
>
> "Examples of troubleshooting tasks include:
>
> Replacing system files. You can replace corrupted files
> from the original installation media.
>
> Recovering data before reinstalling Windows. Windows
> PE provides full access to both FAT and NTFS file systems.
> In circumstances where you must replace or reformat a
> hard disk, you can start the computer with Windows PE first,
> and then copy important files to another disk
>
> Running diagnostic and configuration tools. ( ... )
> Built-in tools include:
>
> Diskpart.
>
> Drvload. You use the drvload command to add device drivers
>
> Net.
>
> Netcfg."
>
> There's nothing on the stuff I have to do all the time, i.e. run
> 3rd-party hard drive diagnostics, data recovery tools, multiple
> sequential malware scanners that work relative to the installation's
> registry, and run 3rd-party integration managers.
>
> They're still talking "pick-up sticks", copying files one at a time
> from a command line.
>
>
> At this point, I might sound a bit negative - but there's much to like
> about WinPE 2.0; many things they got right...
> - runs in RAM, allows changing of optical disks
> - includes firewall
> - hot-detect generic USB storage devices
> - boot from USB as well as optical disks
> ....none of which Bart can do.
>
> This is where I come unstuck:
>
> "Although Windows PE is designed to be small, it contains
> much of the core functionality of Windows Vista. Because
> Windows PE supports Win32 (just like Microsoft Windows XP
> and Windows Vista), most Windows applications will run in
> Windows PE. This means that developers in your IT
> department can use tools such as Microsoft Visual Studio to
> create Win32 applications that run on Windows PE."
>
> AFAIK, WinPE built for Vista-64 does not run 32-bit code, and my main
> problem with WinPE has been an inability to run the tools I need.
>
> A second problem - which requires a bit more "thinking outside the
> (pre-installation) box" than "look, we can copy files around!" - is
> the matter of providing programs with transparent access to the HD
> installation's registry hives as if they were in effect.
>
> That takes a fair bit of thoughtful design, and Paraglider seems to
> have anticipated and caterred for most of that in his RunScanner
> plug-in for Bart. To replace Bart on Vista (as I would hope to do),
> WinPE really needs this functionality.
>
> Perhaps I should search the developers' parts of MS's site to look for
> notes on how one could "use tools such as Microsoft Visual Studio to
> create Win32 applications that run on Windows PE", as this is where
> reasons why things don't work may be spelled out?
>
> Of the limitations stated here, only this...
>
> "Because Windows on Windows (WOW) is not supported,
> 16-bit applications won’t run in 32-bit versions of Windows
> PE, and 32-bit applications won’t run in 64-bit versions of
> Windows PE."
>
> ....explains some of my disappointing mileage, and only for Vista-64.
>
> It's a good article, though not rich in links. For example, I'd have
> loved a link from "use tools such as Microsoft Visual Studio to create
> Win32 applications that run on Windows PE" :-)
>
>
>
> >--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -

> Who is General Failure and
> why is he reading my disk?
> >--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -

>

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