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Help with BSOD... tried everything

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2009
mickmeyers88
 

Posts: n/a
Help with BSOD... tried everything

I've been working on this problem for some time now... and can't seem to
resolve the issue... with much good advice from numerous persons. The
BSOD are many and have different error messages... i'll gladly post a
dump file if that will help. Here's my system and following the things
i've tried. Any help is appreciated...

OS: Vista Ultimate 32 w/ SP1
CPU: Intel Core Duo E8400 3.0 GHz
MB: Gigabyte EP45-UD3P
GPU: Sapphire 100249L Radeon HD 3850 1 GB 256-bit GDDR2 PCI-e 2.0
TV Turner Card: Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1800
RAM: Corsair 4GB (2X2GB) 240-Pin DDR SDRAM 800 (PC2 6400)
Hard Drives: (2) WD Caviar Green 1 TB SATA Model: WD10EADS
Optical Drive: LG 6X Blu-Ray DVD-ROM SATA(GGC-H2OL)
Power Supply: SeaSonic OB-S12 550W ATX12v / EPS12v SLI
Case: Siverstone LC14B-MC ATX HTPC

I've replaced the mb with the same exact model, ran memetest for 2
days, no errors there. Updated the BIOS, all drivers and ran virus
checks aplenty. Sometimes the BSOD will appear suddenly, after only a
few minutes of running the computer, or hours later... seems random.
I'm not running any games... and the temperature of the processor is in
normal range. I'm only running one hd and the video card... nothing
else. I've just installed the new mb... but haven't done a clean
install... should i do this before anything else. thanks


mick


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2009
semoi
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Help with BSOD... tried everything
Random BSODs under non-stressed conditions, like running 3d games, are most
likely due to failing power supply or failing hard drive.
In my experience memory tends to be bad right out of the package rather than
fail later. The Microsoft memory test in my experience very rapidly
identifies bad RAM.
Newer hard drives have an appallingly high failure rate.
Hence back-up now while you still can if indeed your main drive is dying.
Hard drive manufacturers have software on their websites to test the hard
drives. As with the Microsoft memory test drive problems are usually quickly
identified by the software.
If you have two identical hard drives I would clone your main drive to your
secondary drive and use each alone (unplug the other) to see if you get
BSODs with one hard drive and not the other. Unfortunately the last time I
tried to use the Western Digital cloning software I found it useless.


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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2009
westom
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Help with BSOD... tried everything
On Mar 1, 3:56*pm, mickmeyers88 <gu...@unknown-email.com> wrote:
> I've been working on this problem for some time now... and can't seem to
> resolve the issue... with much good advice from numerous persons. *The
> BSOD are many and have different error messages...


BSOD message contains essential software ID and numbers identifying
the primary suspect. Meanwhile, other information is necessary long
before trying to fix anything. For example, what do system (event)
logs report? Device manager? What are critical power supply voltages
(on any one orange, red, purple, and yellow wires) especially when
computer is under most load (when accessing all peripherals
simultaneously)? Those numbers may appear good to you but have
further meaning to others.

Swapping parts without first identifying the problem is called
shotgunning. Informed techs first get facts before swapping
anything. Shotgunning can even exponentially complicate a problem.

Better computer manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware
diagnostics just for your problem. Yours does not provide them. So
download diagnostics from individual component manufacturers or third
parties.

Memtst is an excellent test, but only when conducted properly.
First execute a few passes at room temperature. Then repeat with
memory and related components heated to temperatures that are
uncomfortable to touch but ideal to semiconductors. A hair dryer on
highest heat settings is an ideal testing temperature causing a
defective memory location to fail only at that perfectly normal and
warmer temperature.

Having provided power supply numbers and tested memory using heat as
a diagnostic, then move on to other suspects. Hardware devices that
can cause a BSOD are fewer - including video processor, sound card,
memory, CPU, a limited number of motherboard functions, and firstmost
- the power supply system. Only after these hardware components are
confirmed (especially with manufacturer diagnostics), then move on to
software suspects.

However, those BSOD text and numbers are important; a shortcut to
identifying the primary suspect. Again, good diagnostic procedure
dictates not fixing anything until the suspect is first identified.
Shotgunning usually means replacing half the computer and never really
knowing what the problem was or if it was fixed. Shotgunning (also
called wild speculation) may only cure symptoms. First get facts
before replacing anything. Numbers such as power supply system
voltages (to three significant digits) means the better informed
provide useful assistance.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2009
westom
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Help with BSOD... tried everything
On Mar 1, 5:11*pm, "semoi" <fac_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Random BSODs under non-stressed conditions, like running 3d games, are most
> likely due to failingpower supplyor failing hard drive.
> In my experience memory tends to be bad right out of the package rather than
> fail later. The Microsoft memory test in my experience very rapidly
> identifies bad RAM.


Defective memory may work fine at 70 degree F for months. Burn-in
testing is to find defective memory. The naive assume overnight
testing is burn-in. Burn-in testing is running diagnostics at all
temperature extremes. Especially useful is the memory failure only
seen when memory is heated. For layman, even a hair dryer on highest
heat setting can perform burn-in testing. Better testing would use
even higher temperatures.

List of items that can create BSODs is shorter - just another reason
why NT based OSes are so superior to the DOS/Win9x based OSes. Disk
drive is not on that short list.

Meanwhile, if a disk drive caused problems, then disk drive
manufacturer diagnostics combined with burn-in testing techniques
would identify a defect definitively. Anything less than a definitive
answer causes confusion and wasted time.

Even perfectly good components can fail diagnostics if the
computer's foundation is crumbling. That foundation is the power
supply system - more than a power supply. Even a defective power
supply can boot a computer which is why shotgunning a power supply is
unreliable. (Again, a less than definitive answer causes confusion
and wasted time.) Voltages from a 3.5 digit multimeter while every
peripheral is operating (maximum load) makes no doubt whether a supply
is good or bad. In fact, a multimeter can identify a defective power
supply long before the computer has any failures. That is the
definitive answer.

Long before testing for anything else, first, power supply integrity
must be established using numbers.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2009
Mark H
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Help with BSOD... tried everything
Give mick a break.
I understand based on his post, you may feel he's "jumped the gun."

He has been fighting this problem for quite a while very systematically
running a great deal of diagnostics, using vendor support, multiple
installs, updating drivers and BIOS, running bare minimum or running only
one component at a time trying to find this problem. With minimum
components, the unit survived much longer before BSOD and then the next
failure was within minutes. As he has said, it is random. This lead to
either a broken component on the motherboard or the power supply. It appears
he went with the mobo. Knowing the history, I would not consider him to be
shot gunning.

The BSODs were previously supplied, as were the dump files. But, the
specific error does not provide information other than it is an error
(sudden shutdown.)

"westom" <westom1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fa5b0dbf-b1ed-4e7a-af8f-60037d436a34@t3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 1, 3:56 pm, mickmeyers88 <gu...@unknown-email.com> wrote:
> I've been working on this problem for some time now... and can't seem to
> resolve the issue... with much good advice from numerous persons. The
> BSOD are many and have different error messages...


BSOD message contains essential software ID and numbers identifying
the primary suspect. Meanwhile, other information is necessary long
before trying to fix anything. For example, what do system (event)
logs report? Device manager? What are critical power supply voltages
(on any one orange, red, purple, and yellow wires) especially when
computer is under most load (when accessing all peripherals
simultaneously)? Those numbers may appear good to you but have
further meaning to others.

Swapping parts without first identifying the problem is called
shotgunning. Informed techs first get facts before swapping
anything. Shotgunning can even exponentially complicate a problem.

Better computer manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware
diagnostics just for your problem. Yours does not provide them. So
download diagnostics from individual component manufacturers or third
parties.

Memtst is an excellent test, but only when conducted properly.
First execute a few passes at room temperature. Then repeat with
memory and related components heated to temperatures that are
uncomfortable to touch but ideal to semiconductors. A hair dryer on
highest heat settings is an ideal testing temperature causing a
defective memory location to fail only at that perfectly normal and
warmer temperature.

Having provided power supply numbers and tested memory using heat as
a diagnostic, then move on to other suspects. Hardware devices that
can cause a BSOD are fewer - including video processor, sound card,
memory, CPU, a limited number of motherboard functions, and firstmost
- the power supply system. Only after these hardware components are
confirmed (especially with manufacturer diagnostics), then move on to
software suspects.

However, those BSOD text and numbers are important; a shortcut to
identifying the primary suspect. Again, good diagnostic procedure
dictates not fixing anything until the suspect is first identified.
Shotgunning usually means replacing half the computer and never really
knowing what the problem was or if it was fixed. Shotgunning (also
called wild speculation) may only cure symptoms. First get facts
before replacing anything. Numbers such as power supply system
voltages (to three significant digits) means the better informed
provide useful assistance.

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2009
westom
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Help with BSOD... tried everything
On Mar 1, 9:21 pm, "Mark H" <jmhonz...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
> He has been fighting this problem for quite a while very systematically
> running a great deal of diagnostics, using vendor support, multiple
> installs, updating drivers and BIOS, running bare minimum or running only
> one component at a time trying to find this problem. With minimum
> components, the unit survived much longer before BSOD and then the next
> failure was within minutes. As he has said, it is random.


Random which is why the OP needs a better strategy. For example, he
ran Memtst - good - but did not finish the diagnostic by executing the
test in a manner that finds intermittent memory failures. Heat is a
diagnostic tool. A memory defect may have always existed and is now
creating intermittents. Of course, numbers from the power supply
system are necessary. Also posted were a reduced list of suspects
BIOS is not on that list..

BSOD provides significant facts for those who could provide the OP
with informed replies - if those numbers were posted.

Intermittents are a most difficult type of problem which is why
changing things before collecting facts or identifying suspects may
actually make the problem harder to find and fix. Many of those
'fixed' items were not even legitimate suspects.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2009
mickmeyers88
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Help with BSOD... tried everything

semoi;981020 Wrote:
> Random BSODs under non-stressed conditions, like running 3d games, are
> most
> likely due to failing power supply or failing hard drive.
> In my experience memory tends to be bad right out of the package rather
> than
> fail later. The Microsoft memory test in my experience very rapidly
> identifies bad RAM.



Thanks Semoi... I've done both memory tests.... Vista's and Memtest
(for 48 hrs)... and the RAM i believe is okay. Same with the HD's....
i've done what you suggested before and downloaded diagnostic software
from WD... they both checked out okay. The only program i'm running now
is itunes... just playing in the background.... until the crash. It
does this in Media Player too.

mick


--
mickmeyers88
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2009
mickmeyers88
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Help with BSOD... tried everything

westom;981135 Wrote:
> On Mar 1, 3:56*pm, mickmeyers88 <gu...@xxxxxx-email.com> wrote:> > >
> > > I've been working on this problem for some time now... and can't seem

> > to
> > > resolve the issue... with much good advice from numerous persons.

> > *The
> > > BSOD are many and have different error messages... > >

>
> BSOD message contains essential software ID and numbers identifying
> the primary suspect. Meanwhile, other information is necessary long
> before trying to fix anything. For example, what do system (event)
> logs report? Device manager? What are critical power supply
> voltages
> (on any one orange, red, purple, and yellow wires) especially when
> computer is under most load (when accessing all peripherals
> simultaneously)? Those numbers may appear good to you but have
> further meaning to others.
>
> Swapping parts without first identifying the problem is called
> shotgunning. Informed techs first get facts before swapping
> anything. Shotgunning can even exponentially complicate a problem.
>
> Better computer manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware
> diagnostics just for your problem. Yours does not provide them. So
> download diagnostics from individual component manufacturers or third
> parties.
>
> Memtst is an excellent test, but only when conducted properly.
> First execute a few passes at room temperature. Then repeat with
> memory and related components heated to temperatures that are
> uncomfortable to touch but ideal to semiconductors. A hair dryer on
> highest heat settings is an ideal testing temperature causing a
> defective memory location to fail only at that perfectly normal and
> warmer temperature.
>
> Having provided power supply numbers and tested memory using heat as
> a diagnostic, then move on to other suspects. Hardware devices that
> can cause a BSOD are fewer - including video processor, sound card,
> memory, CPU, a limited number of motherboard functions, and firstmost
> - the power supply system. Only after these hardware components are
> confirmed (especially with manufacturer diagnostics), then move on to
> software suspects.
>
> However, those BSOD text and numbers are important; a shortcut to
> identifying the primary suspect. Again, good diagnostic procedure
> dictates not fixing anything until the suspect is first identified.
> Shotgunning usually means replacing half the computer and never
> really
> knowing what the problem was or if it was fixed. Shotgunning (also
> called wild speculation) may only cure symptoms. First get facts
> before replacing anything. Numbers such as power supply system
> voltages (to three significant digits) means the better informed
> provide useful assistance.

Westom... thanks for the suggestions. The various things i've tried
were suggested to me by others... persons whom i thought probably knew
more than i do. What diagnostic programs would you recommend... of
course i'll do a google myself. i'm interested in something
specifically for trouble shooting a power supply. I've posted many dump
files... which usually had the effect of people "shotgunning responses"
at me... which i would try. If you'd like i would be glad to send you
some dump files.

mick


--
mickmeyers88
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2009
mickmeyers88
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Help with BSOD... tried everything

Getting the numbers from the power supply... how would i go about doing
this? I have a voltage meter... can wire a house, but not trouble shoot
a power supply for this computer.

mick

However, those BSOD text and numbers are important; a shortcut to
identifying the primary suspect. Again, good diagnostic procedure
dictates not fixing anything until the suspect is first identified.
Shotgunning usually means replacing half the computer and never really
knowing what the problem was or if it was fixed. Shotgunning (also
called wild speculation) may only cure symptoms. First get facts
before replacing anything. Numbers such as power supply system
voltages (to three significant digits) means the better informed
provide useful assistance.


--
mickmeyers88
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2009
mickmeyers88
 

Posts: n/a
Re: Help with BSOD... tried everything

westom;981225 Wrote:
> On Mar 1, 5:11*pm, "semoi" <fac_...@xxxxxx> wrote:> > >
> > > Random BSODs under non-stressed conditions, like running 3d games,

> > are most
> > > likely due to failingpower supplyor failing hard drive.
> > > In my experience memory tends to be bad right out of the package

> > rather than
> > > fail later. The Microsoft memory test in my experience very rapidly
> > > identifies bad RAM. > > Defective memory may work fine at 70 degree F for months. Burn-in

> testing is to find defective memory. The naive assume overnight
> testing is burn-in. Burn-in testing is running diagnostics at all
> temperature extremes. Especially useful is the memory failure only
> seen when memory is heated. For layman, even a hair dryer on highest
> heat setting can perform burn-in testing. Better testing would use
> even higher temperatures.
>
> List of items that can create BSODs is shorter - just another reason
> why NT based OSes are so superior to the DOS/Win9x based OSes. Disk
> drive is not on that short list.
>
> Meanwhile, if a disk drive caused problems, then disk drive
> manufacturer diagnostics combined with burn-in testing techniques
> would identify a defect definitively. Anything less than a
> definitive
> answer causes confusion and wasted time.
>
> Even perfectly good components can fail diagnostics if the
> computer's foundation is crumbling. That foundation is the power
> supply system - more than a power supply. Even a defective power
> supply can boot a computer which is why shotgunning a power supply is
> unreliable. (Again, a less than definitive answer causes confusion
> and wasted time.) Voltages from a 3.5 digit multimeter while every
> peripheral is operating (maximum load) makes no doubt whether a
> supply
> is good or bad. In fact, a multimeter can identify a defective power
> supply long before the computer has any failures. That is the
> definitive answer.
>
> Long before testing for anything else, first, power supply integrity
> must be established using numbers.


could you recommend a site or explain how i would test for this,
thanks.


--
mickmeyers88
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