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How to run RAID1 for the Vista boot drive - pls help me understand

microsoft.public.windows.vista hardware devices






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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2007
Dave
 

Posts: n/a
How to run RAID1 for the Vista boot drive - pls help me understand
I am plenty experienced with windows hardware and software development in
most areas except am a complete newbie for raid setup though I understand
the purpose and pitfalls of each configuration just fine.

I have an MSI Platinum P6N with 2G, Intel E6600, SataII 3G and three Seagate
320G Barracudas and would like to run RAID1 on the boot drive so I can
regularly [once per week] hot swap out one the drive in the tray which is
part of the mirror and haul it offsite for a backup and then insert the
previous drive that was offsite and want it to be brought up to date as a
bootable drive for the next time I want to swap backups.

If this is too cumbersone or a bad idea then plan B is to backup the boot
drive to a RAID1 mirror and to then do what I am hoping to do in regards to
hot swapping alternating drives offsite using the "D:" drive rather than the
boot drive.

Questions:

1 - better to run hardware or software raid1 on a Vista system of this type?
Why? Do I need new RAID/SATA software drivers for Vista? Any particularly
good raid links you can recommend?

2 - using a drive hotswap tray I plan to install, can I pull one of the
mirrored drives and insert another and expect the newly inserted drive to be
updated to the current mirror status automatically or must you normally run
some utilitiy to do this? Different for hardware or software setup?

3 - I read that older nVidia nForce chipsets had to have the OS reinstalled
if you turned on RAID1 for the boot drive. I have the nForce 430i chipset
and am wondering if they fixed this problem or must I plan to image the OS
back using Acronis and will that even work the same as if I was still using
just the one boot drive?

4 - can you in fact boot off the RAID1 partner drive if the original boot
drive fails or you have to go get the backup drive and configure to boot the
backup drive not part of a RAID configuration?

Thanks so much,
Dave


Reply With Quote
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2007
Kerry Brown
 

Posts: n/a
Re: How to run RAID1 for the Vista boot drive - pls help me understand
This is indeed a very bad idea. RAID is for redundancy not backups. You
would have to break the mirror, remove one drive, insert another drive, and
recreate the mirror. Unless you have a very expensive hardware controller
this process is not foolproof and it's common for it not to work. It's also
very common that the drive you removed isn't bootable. A better solution is
to use a disk imaging program and clone the hard drive to a second drive
then remove the second drive. When you want another backup put in another
drive and create another clone. This can be done with USB, firewire or some
eSATA drives if you need to do the swapping without downing the computer.

--
Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca


"Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:%23i9li4SsHHA.3736@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>I am plenty experienced with windows hardware and software development in
>most areas except am a complete newbie for raid setup though I understand
>the purpose and pitfalls of each configuration just fine.
>
> I have an MSI Platinum P6N with 2G, Intel E6600, SataII 3G and three
> Seagate 320G Barracudas and would like to run RAID1 on the boot drive so I
> can regularly [once per week] hot swap out one the drive in the tray which
> is part of the mirror and haul it offsite for a backup and then insert the
> previous drive that was offsite and want it to be brought up to date as a
> bootable drive for the next time I want to swap backups.
>
> If this is too cumbersone or a bad idea then plan B is to backup the boot
> drive to a RAID1 mirror and to then do what I am hoping to do in regards
> to hot swapping alternating drives offsite using the "D:" drive rather
> than the boot drive.
>
> Questions:
>
> 1 - better to run hardware or software raid1 on a Vista system of this
> type? Why? Do I need new RAID/SATA software drivers for Vista? Any
> particularly good raid links you can recommend?
>
> 2 - using a drive hotswap tray I plan to install, can I pull one of the
> mirrored drives and insert another and expect the newly inserted drive to
> be updated to the current mirror status automatically or must you normally
> run some utilitiy to do this? Different for hardware or software setup?
>
> 3 - I read that older nVidia nForce chipsets had to have the OS
> reinstalled if you turned on RAID1 for the boot drive. I have the nForce
> 430i chipset and am wondering if they fixed this problem or must I plan to
> image the OS back using Acronis and will that even work the same as if I
> was still using just the one boot drive?
>
> 4 - can you in fact boot off the RAID1 partner drive if the original boot
> drive fails or you have to go get the backup drive and configure to boot
> the backup drive not part of a RAID configuration?
>
> Thanks so much,
> Dave
>


Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Dave
 

Posts: n/a
Re: How to run RAID1 for the Vista boot drive - pls help me understand
If common for it not to work what good is RAID? Gotta think there is some
merit to RAID and this idea than it likely wouldn't work in the first place.
Not ready to give up yet.

I already image to another drive.

What I want is to just be able to pull a mirrored drive and swap offsite
disks and let the new disk come back up to speed whether the booted or the
backup drive.

Thanks,
- Dave

"Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
news:F069DE31-3F2F-41FB-BC12-C44E392E2AA2@microsoft.com...
> This is indeed a very bad idea. RAID is for redundancy not backups. You
> would have to break the mirror, remove one drive, insert another drive,
> and recreate the mirror. Unless you have a very expensive hardware
> controller this process is not foolproof and it's common for it not to
> work. It's also very common that the drive you removed isn't bootable. A
> better solution is to use a disk imaging program and clone the hard drive
> to a second drive then remove the second drive. When you want another
> backup put in another drive and create another clone. This can be done
> with USB, firewire or some eSATA drives if you need to do the swapping
> without downing the computer.
>
> --
> Kerry Brown
> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>
>
> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:%23i9li4SsHHA.3736@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>I am plenty experienced with windows hardware and software development in
>>most areas except am a complete newbie for raid setup though I understand
>>the purpose and pitfalls of each configuration just fine.
>>
>> I have an MSI Platinum P6N with 2G, Intel E6600, SataII 3G and three
>> Seagate 320G Barracudas and would like to run RAID1 on the boot drive so
>> I can regularly [once per week] hot swap out one the drive in the tray
>> which is part of the mirror and haul it offsite for a backup and then
>> insert the previous drive that was offsite and want it to be brought up
>> to date as a bootable drive for the next time I want to swap backups.
>>
>> If this is too cumbersone or a bad idea then plan B is to backup the boot
>> drive to a RAID1 mirror and to then do what I am hoping to do in regards
>> to hot swapping alternating drives offsite using the "D:" drive rather
>> than the boot drive.
>>
>> Questions:
>>
>> 1 - better to run hardware or software raid1 on a Vista system of this
>> type? Why? Do I need new RAID/SATA software drivers for Vista? Any
>> particularly good raid links you can recommend?
>>
>> 2 - using a drive hotswap tray I plan to install, can I pull one of the
>> mirrored drives and insert another and expect the newly inserted drive to
>> be updated to the current mirror status automatically or must you
>> normally run some utilitiy to do this? Different for hardware or software
>> setup?
>>
>> 3 - I read that older nVidia nForce chipsets had to have the OS
>> reinstalled if you turned on RAID1 for the boot drive. I have the nForce
>> 430i chipset and am wondering if they fixed this problem or must I plan
>> to image the OS back using Acronis and will that even work the same as if
>> I was still using just the one boot drive?
>>
>> 4 - can you in fact boot off the RAID1 partner drive if the original boot
>> drive fails or you have to go get the backup drive and configure to boot
>> the backup drive not part of a RAID configuration?
>>
>> Thanks so much,
>> Dave
>>

>



Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Kerry Brown
 

Posts: n/a
Re: How to run RAID1 for the Vista boot drive - pls help me understand
RAID stands for Redundant Array of Independent Disks. The key word is
redundant. If a disk fails the array will not fail and the computer keeps
working until you can schedule the down time to fix it. It works very well
at what it was designed for. It is not and was never designed to be a backup
system.

--
Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca


"Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ojf9SOUsHHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> If common for it not to work what good is RAID? Gotta think there is some
> merit to RAID and this idea than it likely wouldn't work in the first
> place. Not ready to give up yet.
>
> I already image to another drive.
>
> What I want is to just be able to pull a mirrored drive and swap offsite
> disks and let the new disk come back up to speed whether the booted or the
> backup drive.
>
> Thanks,
> - Dave
>
> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
> news:F069DE31-3F2F-41FB-BC12-C44E392E2AA2@microsoft.com...
>> This is indeed a very bad idea. RAID is for redundancy not backups. You
>> would have to break the mirror, remove one drive, insert another drive,
>> and recreate the mirror. Unless you have a very expensive hardware
>> controller this process is not foolproof and it's common for it not to
>> work. It's also very common that the drive you removed isn't bootable. A
>> better solution is to use a disk imaging program and clone the hard drive
>> to a second drive then remove the second drive. When you want another
>> backup put in another drive and create another clone. This can be done
>> with USB, firewire or some eSATA drives if you need to do the swapping
>> without downing the computer.
>>
>> --
>> Kerry Brown
>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
>> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>>
>>
>> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:%23i9li4SsHHA.3736@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>I am plenty experienced with windows hardware and software development in
>>>most areas except am a complete newbie for raid setup though I understand
>>>the purpose and pitfalls of each configuration just fine.
>>>
>>> I have an MSI Platinum P6N with 2G, Intel E6600, SataII 3G and three
>>> Seagate 320G Barracudas and would like to run RAID1 on the boot drive so
>>> I can regularly [once per week] hot swap out one the drive in the tray
>>> which is part of the mirror and haul it offsite for a backup and then
>>> insert the previous drive that was offsite and want it to be brought up
>>> to date as a bootable drive for the next time I want to swap backups.
>>>
>>> If this is too cumbersone or a bad idea then plan B is to backup the
>>> boot drive to a RAID1 mirror and to then do what I am hoping to do in
>>> regards to hot swapping alternating drives offsite using the "D:" drive
>>> rather than the boot drive.
>>>
>>> Questions:
>>>
>>> 1 - better to run hardware or software raid1 on a Vista system of this
>>> type? Why? Do I need new RAID/SATA software drivers for Vista? Any
>>> particularly good raid links you can recommend?
>>>
>>> 2 - using a drive hotswap tray I plan to install, can I pull one of the
>>> mirrored drives and insert another and expect the newly inserted drive
>>> to be updated to the current mirror status automatically or must you
>>> normally run some utilitiy to do this? Different for hardware or
>>> software setup?
>>>
>>> 3 - I read that older nVidia nForce chipsets had to have the OS
>>> reinstalled if you turned on RAID1 for the boot drive. I have the nForce
>>> 430i chipset and am wondering if they fixed this problem or must I plan
>>> to image the OS back using Acronis and will that even work the same as
>>> if I was still using just the one boot drive?
>>>
>>> 4 - can you in fact boot off the RAID1 partner drive if the original
>>> boot drive fails or you have to go get the backup drive and configure to
>>> boot the backup drive not part of a RAID configuration?
>>>
>>> Thanks so much,
>>> Dave
>>>

>>

>
>


Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Dustin Harper
 

Posts: n/a
Re: How to run RAID1 for the Vista boot drive - pls help me understand
It does work, not designed to be that way, but it works. I recently had a
RAID controller go bad, replaced it and a bad HD (power problem). Replaced
one of the two drives, rebuilt the array and back up and running (scary few
days with just one HD). We had backups, but with the RAID array, it kept the
business up and running with little down time.

Not the easiest or correct way to use RAID, but it can save your data in
case of HD failure.

--
Dustin Harper
dharper@vistarip.com
http://www.vistarip.com

--
"Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
news:3006661C-0591-4817-91D8-35D3C01ECADF@microsoft.com...
> RAID stands for Redundant Array of Independent Disks. The key word is
> redundant. If a disk fails the array will not fail and the computer keeps
> working until you can schedule the down time to fix it. It works very well
> at what it was designed for. It is not and was never designed to be a
> backup system.
>
> --
> Kerry Brown
> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>
>
> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Ojf9SOUsHHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> If common for it not to work what good is RAID? Gotta think there is some
>> merit to RAID and this idea than it likely wouldn't work in the first
>> place. Not ready to give up yet.
>>
>> I already image to another drive.
>>
>> What I want is to just be able to pull a mirrored drive and swap offsite
>> disks and let the new disk come back up to speed whether the booted or
>> the backup drive.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> - Dave
>>
>> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
>> news:F069DE31-3F2F-41FB-BC12-C44E392E2AA2@microsoft.com...
>>> This is indeed a very bad idea. RAID is for redundancy not backups. You
>>> would have to break the mirror, remove one drive, insert another drive,
>>> and recreate the mirror. Unless you have a very expensive hardware
>>> controller this process is not foolproof and it's common for it not to
>>> work. It's also very common that the drive you removed isn't bootable. A
>>> better solution is to use a disk imaging program and clone the hard
>>> drive to a second drive then remove the second drive. When you want
>>> another backup put in another drive and create another clone. This can
>>> be done with USB, firewire or some eSATA drives if you need to do the
>>> swapping without downing the computer.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kerry Brown
>>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
>>> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>>>
>>>
>>> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:%23i9li4SsHHA.3736@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>I am plenty experienced with windows hardware and software development
>>>>in most areas except am a complete newbie for raid setup though I
>>>>understand the purpose and pitfalls of each configuration just fine.
>>>>
>>>> I have an MSI Platinum P6N with 2G, Intel E6600, SataII 3G and three
>>>> Seagate 320G Barracudas and would like to run RAID1 on the boot drive
>>>> so I can regularly [once per week] hot swap out one the drive in the
>>>> tray which is part of the mirror and haul it offsite for a backup and
>>>> then insert the previous drive that was offsite and want it to be
>>>> brought up to date as a bootable drive for the next time I want to swap
>>>> backups.
>>>>
>>>> If this is too cumbersone or a bad idea then plan B is to backup the
>>>> boot drive to a RAID1 mirror and to then do what I am hoping to do in
>>>> regards to hot swapping alternating drives offsite using the "D:" drive
>>>> rather than the boot drive.
>>>>
>>>> Questions:
>>>>
>>>> 1 - better to run hardware or software raid1 on a Vista system of this
>>>> type? Why? Do I need new RAID/SATA software drivers for Vista? Any
>>>> particularly good raid links you can recommend?
>>>>
>>>> 2 - using a drive hotswap tray I plan to install, can I pull one of the
>>>> mirrored drives and insert another and expect the newly inserted drive
>>>> to be updated to the current mirror status automatically or must you
>>>> normally run some utilitiy to do this? Different for hardware or
>>>> software setup?
>>>>
>>>> 3 - I read that older nVidia nForce chipsets had to have the OS
>>>> reinstalled if you turned on RAID1 for the boot drive. I have the
>>>> nForce 430i chipset and am wondering if they fixed this problem or must
>>>> I plan to image the OS back using Acronis and will that even work the
>>>> same as if I was still using just the one boot drive?
>>>>
>>>> 4 - can you in fact boot off the RAID1 partner drive if the original
>>>> boot drive fails or you have to go get the backup drive and configure
>>>> to boot the backup drive not part of a RAID configuration?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks so much,
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>


Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Dave
 

Posts: n/a
Re: How to run RAID1 for the Vista boot drive - pls help me understand

Well Kerry maybe you should learn to think out of the box a bit and you
could see that if the software was done correctly it would in fact be an
excellent backup mechanism as I am suggesting rather than dismiss the notion
per the acronym what with hot swapping and trays working as well as they do
nowadays.

Can anyone actually answer my questions isntead of just telling me this is a
bad idea?

Thanks,
- Dave

"Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
news:3006661C-0591-4817-91D8-35D3C01ECADF@microsoft.com...
> RAID stands for Redundant Array of Independent Disks. The key word is
> redundant. If a disk fails the array will not fail and the computer keeps
> working until you can schedule the down time to fix it. It works very well
> at what it was designed for. It is not and was never designed to be a
> backup system.
>
> --
> Kerry Brown
> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>
>
> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Ojf9SOUsHHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> If common for it not to work what good is RAID? Gotta think there is some
>> merit to RAID and this idea than it likely wouldn't work in the first
>> place. Not ready to give up yet.
>>
>> I already image to another drive.
>>
>> What I want is to just be able to pull a mirrored drive and swap offsite
>> disks and let the new disk come back up to speed whether the booted or
>> the backup drive.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> - Dave
>>
>> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
>> news:F069DE31-3F2F-41FB-BC12-C44E392E2AA2@microsoft.com...
>>> This is indeed a very bad idea. RAID is for redundancy not backups. You
>>> would have to break the mirror, remove one drive, insert another drive,
>>> and recreate the mirror. Unless you have a very expensive hardware
>>> controller this process is not foolproof and it's common for it not to
>>> work. It's also very common that the drive you removed isn't bootable. A
>>> better solution is to use a disk imaging program and clone the hard
>>> drive to a second drive then remove the second drive. When you want
>>> another backup put in another drive and create another clone. This can
>>> be done with USB, firewire or some eSATA drives if you need to do the
>>> swapping without downing the computer.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kerry Brown
>>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
>>> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>>>
>>>
>>> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:%23i9li4SsHHA.3736@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>I am plenty experienced with windows hardware and software development
>>>>in most areas except am a complete newbie for raid setup though I
>>>>understand the purpose and pitfalls of each configuration just fine.
>>>>
>>>> I have an MSI Platinum P6N with 2G, Intel E6600, SataII 3G and three
>>>> Seagate 320G Barracudas and would like to run RAID1 on the boot drive
>>>> so I can regularly [once per week] hot swap out one the drive in the
>>>> tray which is part of the mirror and haul it offsite for a backup and
>>>> then insert the previous drive that was offsite and want it to be
>>>> brought up to date as a bootable drive for the next time I want to swap
>>>> backups.
>>>>
>>>> If this is too cumbersone or a bad idea then plan B is to backup the
>>>> boot drive to a RAID1 mirror and to then do what I am hoping to do in
>>>> regards to hot swapping alternating drives offsite using the "D:" drive
>>>> rather than the boot drive.
>>>>
>>>> Questions:
>>>>
>>>> 1 - better to run hardware or software raid1 on a Vista system of this
>>>> type? Why? Do I need new RAID/SATA software drivers for Vista? Any
>>>> particularly good raid links you can recommend?
>>>>
>>>> 2 - using a drive hotswap tray I plan to install, can I pull one of the
>>>> mirrored drives and insert another and expect the newly inserted drive
>>>> to be updated to the current mirror status automatically or must you
>>>> normally run some utilitiy to do this? Different for hardware or
>>>> software setup?
>>>>
>>>> 3 - I read that older nVidia nForce chipsets had to have the OS
>>>> reinstalled if you turned on RAID1 for the boot drive. I have the
>>>> nForce 430i chipset and am wondering if they fixed this problem or must
>>>> I plan to image the OS back using Acronis and will that even work the
>>>> same as if I was still using just the one boot drive?
>>>>
>>>> 4 - can you in fact boot off the RAID1 partner drive if the original
>>>> boot drive fails or you have to go get the backup drive and configure
>>>> to boot the backup drive not part of a RAID configuration?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks so much,
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>



Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Kerry Brown
 

Posts: n/a
Re: How to run RAID1 for the Vista boot drive - pls help me understand
What happened to you is what RAID is for. What the OP wants is to swap
multiple disks in and out of a RAID 1 array for backup purposes. Depending
on the controller this will eventually lead to corrupted data. The "backup"
disk may not be bootable depending on the controller. The amount of time to
rebuild the array will probably be longer and cause a bigger performance hit
than creating a proper disk image would take. Many RAID controllers can't
rebuild an array on the fly anyway. There are many reasons why using RAID
for backup isn't a good idea :-) I use RAID in every server I build. They
also have a backup strategy that has backups on at least two different media
types.

--
Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca


"Dustin Harper" <dharper@vistarip.com> wrote in message
news:B5C76B0C-6EAB-481E-AD8C-9CAA20E80E1C@microsoft.com...
> It does work, not designed to be that way, but it works. I recently had a
> RAID controller go bad, replaced it and a bad HD (power problem). Replaced
> one of the two drives, rebuilt the array and back up and running (scary
> few days with just one HD). We had backups, but with the RAID array, it
> kept the business up and running with little down time.
>
> Not the easiest or correct way to use RAID, but it can save your data in
> case of HD failure.
>
> --
> Dustin Harper
> dharper@vistarip.com
> http://www.vistarip.com
>
> --
> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
> news:3006661C-0591-4817-91D8-35D3C01ECADF@microsoft.com...
>> RAID stands for Redundant Array of Independent Disks. The key word is
>> redundant. If a disk fails the array will not fail and the computer keeps
>> working until you can schedule the down time to fix it. It works very
>> well at what it was designed for. It is not and was never designed to be
>> a backup system.
>>
>> --
>> Kerry Brown
>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
>> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>>
>>
>> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:Ojf9SOUsHHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> If common for it not to work what good is RAID? Gotta think there is
>>> some merit to RAID and this idea than it likely wouldn't work in the
>>> first place. Not ready to give up yet.
>>>
>>> I already image to another drive.
>>>
>>> What I want is to just be able to pull a mirrored drive and swap offsite
>>> disks and let the new disk come back up to speed whether the booted or
>>> the backup drive.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> - Dave
>>>
>>> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
>>> news:F069DE31-3F2F-41FB-BC12-C44E392E2AA2@microsoft.com...
>>>> This is indeed a very bad idea. RAID is for redundancy not backups. You
>>>> would have to break the mirror, remove one drive, insert another drive,
>>>> and recreate the mirror. Unless you have a very expensive hardware
>>>> controller this process is not foolproof and it's common for it not to
>>>> work. It's also very common that the drive you removed isn't bootable.
>>>> A better solution is to use a disk imaging program and clone the hard
>>>> drive to a second drive then remove the second drive. When you want
>>>> another backup put in another drive and create another clone. This can
>>>> be done with USB, firewire or some eSATA drives if you need to do the
>>>> swapping without downing the computer.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kerry Brown
>>>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
>>>> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:%23i9li4SsHHA.3736@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>>I am plenty experienced with windows hardware and software development
>>>>>in most areas except am a complete newbie for raid setup though I
>>>>>understand the purpose and pitfalls of each configuration just fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have an MSI Platinum P6N with 2G, Intel E6600, SataII 3G and three
>>>>> Seagate 320G Barracudas and would like to run RAID1 on the boot drive
>>>>> so I can regularly [once per week] hot swap out one the drive in the
>>>>> tray which is part of the mirror and haul it offsite for a backup and
>>>>> then insert the previous drive that was offsite and want it to be
>>>>> brought up to date as a bootable drive for the next time I want to
>>>>> swap backups.
>>>>>
>>>>> If this is too cumbersone or a bad idea then plan B is to backup the
>>>>> boot drive to a RAID1 mirror and to then do what I am hoping to do in
>>>>> regards to hot swapping alternating drives offsite using the "D:"
>>>>> drive rather than the boot drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1 - better to run hardware or software raid1 on a Vista system of this
>>>>> type? Why? Do I need new RAID/SATA software drivers for Vista? Any
>>>>> particularly good raid links you can recommend?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 - using a drive hotswap tray I plan to install, can I pull one of
>>>>> the mirrored drives and insert another and expect the newly inserted
>>>>> drive to be updated to the current mirror status automatically or must
>>>>> you normally run some utilitiy to do this? Different for hardware or
>>>>> software setup?
>>>>>
>>>>> 3 - I read that older nVidia nForce chipsets had to have the OS
>>>>> reinstalled if you turned on RAID1 for the boot drive. I have the
>>>>> nForce 430i chipset and am wondering if they fixed this problem or
>>>>> must I plan to image the OS back using Acronis and will that even work
>>>>> the same as if I was still using just the one boot drive?
>>>>>
>>>>> 4 - can you in fact boot off the RAID1 partner drive if the original
>>>>> boot drive fails or you have to go get the backup drive and configure
>>>>> to boot the backup drive not part of a RAID configuration?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks so much,
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>

>>

>


Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Dave
 

Posts: n/a
Re: How to run RAID1 for the Vista boot drive
If that's as well as it worked and you could depend on corrupted data I'd
file an engineering report to the manufacturer as that is a bad system and
there is no reason it should not work better than that.

The idea is transparency in action. You just swap drive once a week or
whenever as long as they had enough time to resync in the background. Boot
sectors included.

- Dave

"Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
news:E447CD13-FDB3-47EE-B078-18BC54843A8C@microsoft.com...
> What happened to you is what RAID is for. What the OP wants is to swap
> multiple disks in and out of a RAID 1 array for backup purposes. Depending
> on the controller this will eventually lead to corrupted data. The
> "backup" disk may not be bootable depending on the controller. The amount
> of time to rebuild the array will probably be longer and cause a bigger
> performance hit than creating a proper disk image would take. Many RAID
> controllers can't rebuild an array on the fly anyway. There are many
> reasons why using RAID for backup isn't a good idea :-) I use RAID in
> every server I build. They also have a backup strategy that has backups on
> at least two different media types.
>
> --
> Kerry Brown
> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>
>
> "Dustin Harper" <dharper@vistarip.com> wrote in message
> news:B5C76B0C-6EAB-481E-AD8C-9CAA20E80E1C@microsoft.com...
>> It does work, not designed to be that way, but it works. I recently had a
>> RAID controller go bad, replaced it and a bad HD (power problem).
>> Replaced one of the two drives, rebuilt the array and back up and running
>> (scary few days with just one HD). We had backups, but with the RAID
>> array, it kept the business up and running with little down time.
>>
>> Not the easiest or correct way to use RAID, but it can save your data in
>> case of HD failure.
>>
>> --
>> Dustin Harper
>> dharper@vistarip.com
>> http://www.vistarip.com
>>
>> --
>> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
>> news:3006661C-0591-4817-91D8-35D3C01ECADF@microsoft.com...
>>> RAID stands for Redundant Array of Independent Disks. The key word is
>>> redundant. If a disk fails the array will not fail and the computer
>>> keeps working until you can schedule the down time to fix it. It works
>>> very well at what it was designed for. It is not and was never designed
>>> to be a backup system.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kerry Brown
>>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
>>> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>>>
>>>
>>> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:Ojf9SOUsHHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>> If common for it not to work what good is RAID? Gotta think there is
>>>> some merit to RAID and this idea than it likely wouldn't work in the
>>>> first place. Not ready to give up yet.
>>>>
>>>> I already image to another drive.
>>>>
>>>> What I want is to just be able to pull a mirrored drive and swap
>>>> offsite disks and let the new disk come back up to speed whether the
>>>> booted or the backup drive.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> - Dave
>>>>
>>>> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
>>>> news:F069DE31-3F2F-41FB-BC12-C44E392E2AA2@microsoft.com...
>>>>> This is indeed a very bad idea. RAID is for redundancy not backups.
>>>>> You would have to break the mirror, remove one drive, insert another
>>>>> drive, and recreate the mirror. Unless you have a very expensive
>>>>> hardware controller this process is not foolproof and it's common for
>>>>> it not to work. It's also very common that the drive you removed isn't
>>>>> bootable. A better solution is to use a disk imaging program and clone
>>>>> the hard drive to a second drive then remove the second drive. When
>>>>> you want another backup put in another drive and create another clone.
>>>>> This can be done with USB, firewire or some eSATA drives if you need
>>>>> to do the swapping without downing the computer.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Kerry Brown
>>>>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
>>>>> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:%23i9li4SsHHA.3736@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>I am plenty experienced with windows hardware and software development
>>>>>>in most areas except am a complete newbie for raid setup though I
>>>>>>understand the purpose and pitfalls of each configuration just fine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have an MSI Platinum P6N with 2G, Intel E6600, SataII 3G and three
>>>>>> Seagate 320G Barracudas and would like to run RAID1 on the boot drive
>>>>>> so I can regularly [once per week] hot swap out one the drive in the
>>>>>> tray which is part of the mirror and haul it offsite for a backup and
>>>>>> then insert the previous drive that was offsite and want it to be
>>>>>> brought up to date as a bootable drive for the next time I want to
>>>>>> swap backups.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If this is too cumbersone or a bad idea then plan B is to backup the
>>>>>> boot drive to a RAID1 mirror and to then do what I am hoping to do in
>>>>>> regards to hot swapping alternating drives offsite using the "D:"
>>>>>> drive rather than the boot drive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1 - better to run hardware or software raid1 on a Vista system of
>>>>>> this type? Why? Do I need new RAID/SATA software drivers for Vista?
>>>>>> Any particularly good raid links you can recommend?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2 - using a drive hotswap tray I plan to install, can I pull one of
>>>>>> the mirrored drives and insert another and expect the newly inserted
>>>>>> drive to be updated to the current mirror status automatically or
>>>>>> must you normally run some utilitiy to do this? Different for
>>>>>> hardware or software setup?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3 - I read that older nVidia nForce chipsets had to have the OS
>>>>>> reinstalled if you turned on RAID1 for the boot drive. I have the
>>>>>> nForce 430i chipset and am wondering if they fixed this problem or
>>>>>> must I plan to image the OS back using Acronis and will that even
>>>>>> work the same as if I was still using just the one boot drive?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4 - can you in fact boot off the RAID1 partner drive if the original
>>>>>> boot drive fails or you have to go get the backup drive and configure
>>>>>> to boot the backup drive not part of a RAID configuration?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks so much,
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>

>>

>



Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Kerry Brown
 

Posts: n/a
Re: How to run RAID1 for the Vista boot drive - pls help me understand
You asked a question. I gave you an answer based on my experience. I have
worked with many different RAID setups in may different OS'. I have actually
tried to setup a system similar to what you want to do. It didn't work as
well as a disk imaging system with multiple USB drives.

--
Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca


"Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:evLuz5VsHHA.1060@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>
> Well Kerry maybe you should learn to think out of the box a bit and you
> could see that if the software was done correctly it would in fact be an
> excellent backup mechanism as I am suggesting rather than dismiss the
> notion per the acronym what with hot swapping and trays working as well as
> they do nowadays.
>
> Can anyone actually answer my questions isntead of just telling me this is
> a bad idea?
>
> Thanks,
> - Dave
>
> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
> news:3006661C-0591-4817-91D8-35D3C01ECADF@microsoft.com...
>> RAID stands for Redundant Array of Independent Disks. The key word is
>> redundant. If a disk fails the array will not fail and the computer keeps
>> working until you can schedule the down time to fix it. It works very
>> well at what it was designed for. It is not and was never designed to be
>> a backup system.
>>
>> --
>> Kerry Brown
>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
>> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>>
>>
>> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:Ojf9SOUsHHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> If common for it not to work what good is RAID? Gotta think there is
>>> some merit to RAID and this idea than it likely wouldn't work in the
>>> first place. Not ready to give up yet.
>>>
>>> I already image to another drive.
>>>
>>> What I want is to just be able to pull a mirrored drive and swap offsite
>>> disks and let the new disk come back up to speed whether the booted or
>>> the backup drive.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> - Dave
>>>
>>> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
>>> news:F069DE31-3F2F-41FB-BC12-C44E392E2AA2@microsoft.com...
>>>> This is indeed a very bad idea. RAID is for redundancy not backups. You
>>>> would have to break the mirror, remove one drive, insert another drive,
>>>> and recreate the mirror. Unless you have a very expensive hardware
>>>> controller this process is not foolproof and it's common for it not to
>>>> work. It's also very common that the drive you removed isn't bootable.
>>>> A better solution is to use a disk imaging program and clone the hard
>>>> drive to a second drive then remove the second drive. When you want
>>>> another backup put in another drive and create another clone. This can
>>>> be done with USB, firewire or some eSATA drives if you need to do the
>>>> swapping without downing the computer.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kerry Brown
>>>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
>>>> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:%23i9li4SsHHA.3736@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>>I am plenty experienced with windows hardware and software development
>>>>>in most areas except am a complete newbie for raid setup though I
>>>>>understand the purpose and pitfalls of each configuration just fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have an MSI Platinum P6N with 2G, Intel E6600, SataII 3G and three
>>>>> Seagate 320G Barracudas and would like to run RAID1 on the boot drive
>>>>> so I can regularly [once per week] hot swap out one the drive in the
>>>>> tray which is part of the mirror and haul it offsite for a backup and
>>>>> then insert the previous drive that was offsite and want it to be
>>>>> brought up to date as a bootable drive for the next time I want to
>>>>> swap backups.
>>>>>
>>>>> If this is too cumbersone or a bad idea then plan B is to backup the
>>>>> boot drive to a RAID1 mirror and to then do what I am hoping to do in
>>>>> regards to hot swapping alternating drives offsite using the "D:"
>>>>> drive rather than the boot drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1 - better to run hardware or software raid1 on a Vista system of this
>>>>> type? Why? Do I need new RAID/SATA software drivers for Vista? Any
>>>>> particularly good raid links you can recommend?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 - using a drive hotswap tray I plan to install, can I pull one of
>>>>> the mirrored drives and insert another and expect the newly inserted
>>>>> drive to be updated to the current mirror status automatically or must
>>>>> you normally run some utilitiy to do this? Different for hardware or
>>>>> software setup?
>>>>>
>>>>> 3 - I read that older nVidia nForce chipsets had to have the OS
>>>>> reinstalled if you turned on RAID1 for the boot drive. I have the
>>>>> nForce 430i chipset and am wondering if they fixed this problem or
>>>>> must I plan to image the OS back using Acronis and will that even work
>>>>> the same as if I was still using just the one boot drive?
>>>>>
>>>>> 4 - can you in fact boot off the RAID1 partner drive if the original
>>>>> boot drive fails or you have to go get the backup drive and configure
>>>>> to boot the backup drive not part of a RAID configuration?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks so much,
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>

>>

>
>


Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Dustin Harper
 

Posts: n/a
Re: How to run RAID1 for the Vista boot drive - pls help me understand
RAID is decent for a backup, in the sense for hardware failure. But, it is
still onsite, and still in the same PC. Should a fire, or a multiple HD
failure, or a format of the array, or corruption, it isn't a backup. If one
HD goes bad, it's the other one that saves it. If you have an offsite
backup; i.e. a DVD, Tape backup, you have something that isn't connected to
the PC. Almost a permanent copy of the files that were there when the backup
was created.

RAID has it's uses, but as a removable backup device, it's not a good idea.
RAID works great in servers. If a HD goes out, you replace it, and you're
back up and running (you can even run one, but it's all sweat and sleepless
nights until the other gets replaced!). But, if the the whole array goes to
hell, and you don't have a tape backup or other... you're screwed. If you
take one HD out at night for the backup, and put it back in in the morning,
you're still taking a chance.

We had a RAID (which saved us!), but we also had a tape backup. The RAID was
the easy fix. The tape backup would be safer, but more difficult. RAID isn't
meant for off-site backups. It's meant for hardware failure within the PC
itself.

--
Dustin Harper
dharper@vistarip.com
http://www.vistarip.com

--
"Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
news:E447CD13-FDB3-47EE-B078-18BC54843A8C@microsoft.com...
> What happened to you is what RAID is for. What the OP wants is to swap
> multiple disks in and out of a RAID 1 array for backup purposes. Depending
> on the controller this will eventually lead to corrupted data. The
> "backup" disk may not be bootable depending on the controller. The amount
> of time to rebuild the array will probably be longer and cause a bigger
> performance hit than creating a proper disk image would take. Many RAID
> controllers can't rebuild an array on the fly anyway. There are many
> reasons why using RAID for backup isn't a good idea :-) I use RAID in
> every server I build. They also have a backup strategy that has backups on
> at least two different media types.
>
> --
> Kerry Brown
> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>
>
> "Dustin Harper" <dharper@vistarip.com> wrote in message
> news:B5C76B0C-6EAB-481E-AD8C-9CAA20E80E1C@microsoft.com...
>> It does work, not designed to be that way, but it works. I recently had a
>> RAID controller go bad, replaced it and a bad HD (power problem).
>> Replaced one of the two drives, rebuilt the array and back up and running
>> (scary few days with just one HD). We had backups, but with the RAID
>> array, it kept the business up and running with little down time.
>>
>> Not the easiest or correct way to use RAID, but it can save your data in
>> case of HD failure.
>>
>> --
>> Dustin Harper
>> dharper@vistarip.com
>> http://www.vistarip.com
>>
>> --
>> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
>> news:3006661C-0591-4817-91D8-35D3C01ECADF@microsoft.com...
>>> RAID stands for Redundant Array of Independent Disks. The key word is
>>> redundant. If a disk fails the array will not fail and the computer
>>> keeps working until you can schedule the down time to fix it. It works
>>> very well at what it was designed for. It is not and was never designed
>>> to be a backup system.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kerry Brown
>>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
>>> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>>>
>>>
>>> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:Ojf9SOUsHHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>> If common for it not to work what good is RAID? Gotta think there is
>>>> some merit to RAID and this idea than it likely wouldn't work in the
>>>> first place. Not ready to give up yet.
>>>>
>>>> I already image to another drive.
>>>>
>>>> What I want is to just be able to pull a mirrored drive and swap
>>>> offsite disks and let the new disk come back up to speed whether the
>>>> booted or the backup drive.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> - Dave
>>>>
>>>> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
>>>> news:F069DE31-3F2F-41FB-BC12-C44E392E2AA2@microsoft.com...
>>>>> This is indeed a very bad idea. RAID is for redundancy not backups.
>>>>> You would have to break the mirror, remove one drive, insert another
>>>>> drive, and recreate the mirror. Unless you have a very expensive
>>>>> hardware controller this process is not foolproof and it's common for
>>>>> it not to work. It's also very common that the drive you removed isn't
>>>>> bootable. A better solution is to use a disk imaging program and clone
>>>>> the hard drive to a second drive then remove the second drive. When
>>>>> you want another backup put in another drive and create another clone.
>>>>> This can be done with USB, firewire or some eSATA drives if you need
>>>>> to do the swapping without downing the computer.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Kerry Brown
>>>>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
>>>>> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Dave" <REMOVETHISDaveAtHome@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:%23i9li4SsHHA.3736@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>I am plenty experienced with windows hardware and software development
>>>>>>in most areas except am a complete newbie for raid setup though I
>>>>>>understand the purpose and pitfalls of each configuration just fine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have an MSI Platinum P6N with 2G, Intel E6600, SataII 3G and three
>>>>>> Seagate 320G Barracudas and would like to run RAID1 on the boot drive
>>>>>> so I can regularly [once per week] hot swap out one the drive in the
>>>>>> tray which is part of the mirror and haul it offsite for a backup and
>>>>>> then insert the previous drive that was offsite and want it to be
>>>>>> brought up to date as a bootable drive for the next time I want to
>>>>>> swap backups.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If this is too cumbersone or a bad idea then plan B is to backup the
>>>>>> boot drive to a RAID1 mirror and to then do what I am hoping to do in
>>>>>> regards to hot swapping alternating drives offsite using the "D:"
>>>>>> drive rather than the boot drive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1 - better to run hardware or software raid1 on a Vista system of
>>>>>> this type? Why? Do I need new RAID/SATA software drivers for Vista?
>>>>>> Any particularly good raid links you can recommend?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2 - using a drive hotswap tray I plan to install, can I pull one of
>>>>>> the mirrored drives and insert another and expect the newly inserted
>>>>>> drive to be updated to the current mirror status automatically or
>>>>>> must you normally run some utilitiy to do this? Different for
>>>>>> hardware or software setup?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3 - I read that older nVidia nForce chipsets had to have the OS
>>>>>> reinstalled if you turned on RAID1 for the boot drive. I have the
>>>>>> nForce 430i chipset and am wondering if they fixed this problem or
>>>>>> must I plan to image the OS back using Acronis and will that even
>>>>>> work the same as if I was still using just the one boot drive?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4 - can you in fact boot off the RAID1 partner drive if the original
>>>>>> boot drive fails or you have to go get the backup drive and configure
>>>>>> to boot the backup drive not part of a RAID configuration?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks so much,
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>

>>

>


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