RE: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permission scre

Exellent explanation Jimmy. Thank You. I now, after months of using Vista and
hours of searching the net, understand the basic reasoning behind all my
suffering. It makes a lot of sense and I will definitely make myself a
seperate user account for daily use. Having said this I do not believe
Microsoft is going to get the everage Joe to go through such a steep learning
curve. Also, giving a program temporary administrator rights does not work
with my very first attempt on Explorer. A numeber of files and folders have
either been hidden, deleted or placed elsewhere by Vista when re-directing
the documents and picture folders to another drive (following directions by
MS Help). F.i. folders from my documents directory have ended up inside my
pictures directory. When trying to reorganise with Explorer (with
administrator rights) I still get pop ups telling me I am not authorised to
perform these tasks. I know MS is trying to give me control, but it sure does
not feel like it.
My only option seems to be to temporarily switch off UAC to get reorganised.
Any other suggestions? Ernst

"Jimmy Brush" wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I've noticed that a lot of the questions in these newsgroups are either
> directly or indirectly related to UAC (User Account Control). In this post,
> I will go over what UAC does, how it works, the reasoning behind it, how to
> use your computer with UAC on, why you shouldn't turn UAC off, and answer
> some common questions and respond to common complaints about it.
>
>
> * What is UAC and what does it do?
>
> UAC mode (also known as Admin Approval Mode) is a mode of operation that
> (primarily) affects the way administrator accounts work.
>
> When UAC is turned on (which it is by default), you must explicitly give
> permission to any program that wants to use "administrator" powers. Any
> program that tries to use admin powers without your permission will be
> denied access.
>
>
> * How does UAC work
>
> When UAC mode is enabled, every program that you run will be given only
> "standard user" access to the system, even when you are logged in as an
> administrator. There are only 2 ways that a program can be "elevated" to get
> full admin access to the system:
>
> - If it automatically asks you for permission when it starts up, and you
> click Continue
> - If you start the program with permission by right-clicking it, then
> clicking Run As Administrator
>
> A program either starts with STANDARD rights or, if you give permission,
> ADMINISTRATOR rights, and once the program is running it cannot change from
> one to the other.
>
> If a program that you have already started with admin powers starts another
> program, that program will automatically be given admin powers without
> needing your permission. For example, if you start Windows Explorer as
> administrator, and then double-click on a text file, notepad will open and
> display the contents of the text file. Since notepad was opened from the
> admin explorer window, notepad WILL ALSO automatically run WITH admin
> powers, and will not ask for permission.
>
>
> * What's the point of UAC?
>
> UAC is designed to put control of your computer back into your hands,
> instead of at the mercy of the programs running on your computer.
>
> When logged in as an administrator in Windows XP, any program that could
> somehow get itself started could take control of the entire computer without
> you even knowing about it.
>
> With UAC turned on, you must know about and authorize a program in order for
> it to gain admin access to the system, REGARDLESS of how the program got
> there or how it is started.
>
> This is important to all levels of users - from home users to enterprise
> administrators. Being alerted when any program tries to use admin powers and
> being able to unilaterally disallow a program from having such power is a
> VERY powerful ability. No longer is the security of the system tantamount to
> "crossing one's fingers and hoping for the best" - YOU now control your
> system.
>
>
> * How do I effectively use my computer with UAC turned on?
>
> It's easy. Just keep in mind that programs don't have admin access to your
> computer unless you give them permission. Microsoft programs that come with
> Windows Vista that need admin access will always ask for admin permissions
> when you start them. However, most other programs will not.
>
> This will change after Windows Vista is released - all Windows Vista-era
> programs that need admin power will always ask you for it. Until then, you
> will need to run programs that need administrative powers that were not
> designed for Windows Vista "as administrator".
>
> Command-line programs do not automatically ask for permission. Not even the
> built-in ones. You will need to run the command prompt "as administrator" in
> order to run administrative command-line utilities.
>
> Working with files and folders from Windows Explorer can be a real pain when
> you are not working with your own files. When you are needing to work with
> system files, files that you didn't create, or files from another operating
> system, run Windows Explorer "as administrator". In the same vein, ANY
> program that you run that needs access to system files or files that you
> didn't create will need to be ran "as administrator".
>
> If you are going to be working with the control panel for a long time,
> running control.exe "as administrator" will make things less painful - you
> will only be asked for permission once, instead of every time you try to
> change a system-wide setting.
>
> In short:
>
> - Run command prompt as admin when you need to run admin utilities
> - Run setup programs as admin
> - Run programs not designed for Vista as admin if (and only if) they need
> admin access
> - Run Windows Explorer as admin when you need access to files that aren't
> yours or system files
> - Run programs that need access to files that aren't yours or system files
> as admin
> - Run control.exe as admin when changing many settings in the control panel
>
>
> * UAC is annoying, I want to turn it off
>
> Having to go through an extra step (clicking Continue) when opening
> administrative programs is annoying. And it is also very frustrating to run
> a program that needs admin power but doesn't automatically ask you for it
> (you have to right-click these programs and click Run As Administrator for
> them to run correctly).
>
> But, keep in mind that these small inconveniences are insignificant when
> weighed against the benefit: NO PROGRAM can get full access to your system
> without you being informed. The first time the permission dialog pops up and
> it is from some program that you know nothing about or that you do not want
> to have access to your system, you will be very glad that the Cancel button
> was available to you.
>
>
> * Answers to common questions and responses to common criticism
>
> Q: I have anti-virus, a firewall, a spyware-detector, or something similar.
> Why do I need UAC?
>
> A: Detectors can only see known threats. And of all the known threats in
> existence, they only detect the most common of those threats. With UAC
> turned on, *you* control what programs have access to your computer - you
> can stop ALL threats. Detectors are nice, but they're not enough. How many
> people do you know that have detectors of all kinds and yet are still
> infested with programs that they don't want on their computer? Everyone that
> I have ever helped falls into this category.
>
>
> Q: Does UAC replace anti-virus, a firewall, a spyware-detector, or similar
> programs?
>
> A: No. Microsoft recommends that you use a virus scanner and/or other types
> of security software. These types of programs compliment UAC: They will get
> rid of known threats for you. UAC will allow you to stop unknown threats, as
> well as prevent any program that you do not trust from gaining access to
> your computer.
>
>
> Q: I am a system administrator - I have no use for UAC.
>
> A: Really? You don't NEED to know when a program on your computer runs with
> admin powers? You are a system administrator and you really could care less
> when a program runs that has full control of your system, and possibly your
> entire domain? You're joking, right?
>
>
> Q: UAC keeps me from accessing files and folders
>
> A: No, it doesn't - UAC protects you from programs that would try to delete
> or modify system files and folders without your knowledge. If you want a
> program to have full access to the files on your computer, you will need to
> run it as admin. Or as an alternative, if possible, put the files it needs
> access to in a place that all programs have access to - such as your
> documents folder, or any folder under your user folder.
>
>
> Q: UAC stops programs from working correctly
>
> A: If a program needs admin power and it doesn't ask you for permission when
> it starts, you have to give it admin powers by right-clicking it and
> clicking Run As Administrator. Programs should work like they did in XP when
> you use Run As Administrator. If they don't, then this is a bug.
>
>
> Q: UAC keeps me from doing things that I could do in XP
>
> A: This is not the case. Just remember that programs that do not ask for
> permission when they start do not get admin access to your computer. If you
> are using a tool that needs admin access, right-click it and click Run As
> Administrator. It should work exactly as it did in XP. If it does not, then
> this is a bug.
>
>
> Q: UAC is Microsoft's way of controlling my computer and preventing me from
> using it!
>
> A: This is 100% UNTRUE. UAC puts control of your computer IN YOUR HANDS by
> allowing you to prevent unwanted programs from accessing your computer.
> *Everything* that you can do with UAC turned off, you can do with it turned
> on. If this is not the case, then that is a bug.
>
>
> Q: I don't need Windows to hold my freaking hand! I *know* what I've got on
> my computer, and I *know* when programs run! I am logged on as an
> ADMINISTRATOR for a dang reason!
>
> A: I accept the way that you think, and can see the logic, but I don't agree
> with this idea. UAC is putting POWER in your hands by letting you CONTROL
> what runs on your system. But you want to give up this control and allow all
> programs to run willy-nilly. Look, if you want to do this go right ahead,
> you can turn UAC off and things will return to how they worked in XP. But,
> don't be surprised when either 1) You run something by mistake that messes
> up your computer and/or domain, or 2) A program somehow gets on your
> computer that you know nothing about that takes over your computer and/or
> domain, and UAC would have allowed you to have stopped it.
>
>
> - JB
>
> Vista Support FAQ
> http://www.jimmah.com/vista/
>

Ernst, the UAC system is Microsoft's way of putting the horse back in
front of the cart.

The convention with Unix / Linux has always been to have one admin -
"Root" and everyone else as users.

Generally it's been the opposite with Windows.

Unfortunately Vista does not "Explain" that as the "Owner" or
"Installer" of the system you are really only a privileged "User". The
impressions is that you are "Special" because in the past you always were.

With Linux it has been convention for years that running as "Root" is a
bad thing, and the more sophisticated the software you are using
(Graphical User Interface for example) the more dangerous that would be
because quite simply there's more chance of a bug letting bad things happen.

So to do anything with older Linux you would sign out as "Ernst" and
back in as "Root". Normally neither "Ernst" nor malware could do much to
damage the system.

Later versions allow "Ernst" to use the command "SUDO" (or similar) to
temporarily gain admin rights (Root) for one specific task or groups of
tasks.

With Windows the convention has been the wrong way around, and this is a
kind of "Legacy" carried on by the users who expect to always have
total control at all times. Unfortunately this also gives a bad guy at
your desktop, a bad guy with a remote terminal or bad software the same
control.

So although I think UAC is a clumsy and sometimes annoying way of trying
to persuade people to do it the right way, it is an advisory tool that
has some merit. It is NOT per-se increased security if you are silly and
let things you are unaware of do what they ask, any more than the Linux
method is "Security" if you become "Root" and let unknown software take
actions it requests.

In some circumstances signing in as "Root" might be acceptable, in your
case it probably was, but with the amount of malware, spyware and stuff
targeting Windows these days most users who were running as full admin
were in danger.




Ernst wrote:
> Exellent explanation Jimmy. Thank You. I now, after months of using Vista and
> hours of searching the net, understand the basic reasoning behind all my
> suffering. It makes a lot of sense and I will definitely make myself a
> seperate user account for daily use. Having said this I do not believe
> Microsoft is going to get the everage Joe to go through such a steep learning
> curve. Also, giving a program temporary administrator rights does not work
> with my very first attempt on Explorer. A numeber of files and folders have
> either been hidden, deleted or placed elsewhere by Vista when re-directing
> the documents and picture folders to another drive (following directions by
> MS Help). F.i. folders from my documents directory have ended up inside my
> pictures directory. When trying to reorganise with Explorer (with
> administrator rights) I still get pop ups telling me I am not authorised to
> perform these tasks. I know MS is trying to give me control, but it sure does
> not feel like it.
> My only option seems to be to temporarily switch off UAC to get reorganised.
> Any other suggestions? Ernst
>
> "Jimmy Brush" wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I've noticed that a lot of the questions in these newsgroups are either
>> directly or indirectly related to UAC (User Account Control). In this post,
>> I will go over what UAC does, how it works, the reasoning behind it, how to
>> use your computer with UAC on, why you shouldn't turn UAC off, and answer
>> some common questions and respond to common complaints about it.
>>
>>
>> * What is UAC and what does it do?
>>
>> UAC mode (also known as Admin Approval Mode) is a mode of operation that
>> (primarily) affects the way administrator accounts work.
>>
>> When UAC is turned on (which it is by default), you must explicitly give
>> permission to any program that wants to use "administrator" powers. Any
>> program that tries to use admin powers without your permission will be
>> denied access.
>>
>>
>> * How does UAC work
>>
>> When UAC mode is enabled, every program that you run will be given only
>> "standard user" access to the system, even when you are logged in as an
>> administrator. There are only 2 ways that a program can be "elevated" to get
>> full admin access to the system:
>>
>> - If it automatically asks you for permission when it starts up, and you
>> click Continue
>> - If you start the program with permission by right-clicking it, then
>> clicking Run As Administrator
>>
>> A program either starts with STANDARD rights or, if you give permission,
>> ADMINISTRATOR rights, and once the program is running it cannot change from
>> one to the other.
>>
>> If a program that you have already started with admin powers starts another
>> program, that program will automatically be given admin powers without
>> needing your permission. For example, if you start Windows Explorer as
>> administrator, and then double-click on a text file, notepad will open and
>> display the contents of the text file. Since notepad was opened from the
>> admin explorer window, notepad WILL ALSO automatically run WITH admin
>> powers, and will not ask for permission.
>>
>>
>> * What's the point of UAC?
>>
>> UAC is designed to put control of your computer back into your hands,
>> instead of at the mercy of the programs running on your computer.
>>
>> When logged in as an administrator in Windows XP, any program that could
>> somehow get itself started could take control of the entire computer without
>> you even knowing about it.
>>
>> With UAC turned on, you must know about and authorize a program in order for
>> it to gain admin access to the system, REGARDLESS of how the program got
>> there or how it is started.
>>
>> This is important to all levels of users - from home users to enterprise
>> administrators. Being alerted when any program tries to use admin powers and
>> being able to unilaterally disallow a program from having such power is a
>> VERY powerful ability. No longer is the security of the system tantamount to
>> "crossing one's fingers and hoping for the best" - YOU now control your
>> system.
>>
>>
>> * How do I effectively use my computer with UAC turned on?
>>
>> It's easy. Just keep in mind that programs don't have admin access to your
>> computer unless you give them permission. Microsoft programs that come with
>> Windows Vista that need admin access will always ask for admin permissions
>> when you start them. However, most other programs will not.
>>
>> This will change after Windows Vista is released - all Windows Vista-era
>> programs that need admin power will always ask you for it. Until then, you
>> will need to run programs that need administrative powers that were not
>> designed for Windows Vista "as administrator".
>>
>> Command-line programs do not automatically ask for permission. Not even the
>> built-in ones. You will need to run the command prompt "as administrator" in
>> order to run administrative command-line utilities.
>>
>> Working with files and folders from Windows Explorer can be a real pain when
>> you are not working with your own files. When you are needing to work with
>> system files, files that you didn't create, or files from another operating
>> system, run Windows Explorer "as administrator". In the same vein, ANY
>> program that you run that needs access to system files or files that you
>> didn't create will need to be ran "as administrator".
>>
>> If you are going to be working with the control panel for a long time,
>> running control.exe "as administrator" will make things less painful - you
>> will only be asked for permission once, instead of every time you try to
>> change a system-wide setting.
>>
>> In short:
>>
>> - Run command prompt as admin when you need to run admin utilities
>> - Run setup programs as admin
>> - Run programs not designed for Vista as admin if (and only if) they need
>> admin access
>> - Run Windows Explorer as admin when you need access to files that aren't
>> yours or system files
>> - Run programs that need access to files that aren't yours or system files
>> as admin
>> - Run control.exe as admin when changing many settings in the control panel
>>
>>
>> * UAC is annoying, I want to turn it off
>>
>> Having to go through an extra step (clicking Continue) when opening
>> administrative programs is annoying. And it is also very frustrating to run
>> a program that needs admin power but doesn't automatically ask you for it
>> (you have to right-click these programs and click Run As Administrator for
>> them to run correctly).
>>
>> But, keep in mind that these small inconveniences are insignificant when
>> weighed against the benefit: NO PROGRAM can get full access to your system
>> without you being informed. The first time the permission dialog pops up and
>> it is from some program that you know nothing about or that you do not want
>> to have access to your system, you will be very glad that the Cancel button
>> was available to you.
>>
>>
>> * Answers to common questions and responses to common criticism
>>
>> Q: I have anti-virus, a firewall, a spyware-detector, or something similar.
>> Why do I need UAC?
>>
>> A: Detectors can only see known threats. And of all the known threats in
>> existence, they only detect the most common of those threats. With UAC
>> turned on, *you* control what programs have access to your computer - you
>> can stop ALL threats. Detectors are nice, but they're not enough. How many
>> people do you know that have detectors of all kinds and yet are still
>> infested with programs that they don't want on their computer? Everyone that
>> I have ever helped falls into this category.
>>
>>
>> Q: Does UAC replace anti-virus, a firewall, a spyware-detector, or similar
>> programs?
>>
>> A: No. Microsoft recommends that you use a virus scanner and/or other types
>> of security software. These types of programs compliment UAC: They will get
>> rid of known threats for you. UAC will allow you to stop unknown threats, as
>> well as prevent any program that you do not trust from gaining access to
>> your computer.
>>
>>
>> Q: I am a system administrator - I have no use for UAC.
>>
>> A: Really? You don't NEED to know when a program on your computer runs with
>> admin powers? You are a system administrator and you really could care less
>> when a program runs that has full control of your system, and possibly your
>> entire domain? You're joking, right?
>>
>>
>> Q: UAC keeps me from accessing files and folders
>>
>> A: No, it doesn't - UAC protects you from programs that would try to delete
>> or modify system files and folders without your knowledge. If you want a
>> program to have full access to the files on your computer, you will need to
>> run it as admin. Or as an alternative, if possible, put the files it needs
>> access to in a place that all programs have access to - such as your
>> documents folder, or any folder under your user folder.
>>
>>
>> Q: UAC stops programs from working correctly
>>
>> A: If a program needs admin power and it doesn't ask you for permission when
>> it starts, you have to give it admin powers by right-clicking it and
>> clicking Run As Administrator. Programs should work like they did in XP when
>> you use Run As Administrator. If they don't, then this is a bug.
>>
>>
>> Q: UAC keeps me from doing things that I could do in XP
>>
>> A: This is not the case. Just remember that programs that do not ask for
>> permission when they start do not get admin access to your computer. If you
>> are using a tool that needs admin access, right-click it and click Run As
>> Administrator. It should work exactly as it did in XP. If it does not, then
>> this is a bug.
>>
>>
>> Q: UAC is Microsoft's way of controlling my computer and preventing me from
>> using it!
>>
>> A: This is 100% UNTRUE. UAC puts control of your computer IN YOUR HANDS by
>> allowing you to prevent unwanted programs from accessing your computer.
>> *Everything* that you can do with UAC turned off, you can do with it turned
>> on. If this is not the case, then that is a bug.
>>
>>
>> Q: I don't need Windows to hold my freaking hand! I *know* what I've got on
>> my computer, and I *know* when programs run! I am logged on as an
>> ADMINISTRATOR for a dang reason!
>>
>> A: I accept the way that you think, and can see the logic, but I don't agree
>> with this idea. UAC is putting POWER in your hands by letting you CONTROL
>> what runs on your system. But you want to give up this control and allow all
>> programs to run willy-nilly. Look, if you want to do this go right ahead,
>> you can turn UAC off and things will return to how they worked in XP. But,
>> don't be surprised when either 1) You run something by mistake that messes
>> up your computer and/or domain, or 2) A program somehow gets on your
>> computer that you know nothing about that takes over your computer and/or
>> domain, and UAC would have allowed you to have stopped it.
>>
>>
>> - JB
>>
>> Vista Support FAQ
>> http://www.jimmah.com/vista/
>>

Charlie, Thank you for this extensive respons. Yes I understand what you are
saying, but this was already clear to me from the earlier part of the thread.
I also agree with the principal behind it. I have worked for many years with
firewalls like ZoneAlarm and Comodo that use a similar principal: Ask the
user what program is allowed access (the computer or the internet). However,
these firewalls have never stopped me from doing the work that I need doing
on my PC. UAC is. If this UAC is applied it should work properly, both in
protection AND in giving access when given permission by me as administrator
to do so. As I have described in my previous post, I cannot copy files within
my user directory (from pictures to documents) even after starting Explorer
up with administrator rights (right mouse button). Vista Home still tells me
I do not have the correct authorisation. Never mind the fact that my owner
directory is a mess after having stored (diverted) subdirectories on a
different drive using the directions provided by Help. Basically this is a
different problem, but they might be related. Ever since redirecting the
pictures and the documents folders to the D-drive, the folder I had stored
them in on the D-Drive has disappeared from view, including all the other
files and subdirectories that it contained. I guess they are all still
somewhere on the system, but I cannot see and thus cannot access them
anymore. Other files and folders have switched directory. The example I gave
was my bookkeeping folder. This folder used to be stored in 'Documents'.
Since the divertion it is stored in the 'Pictures' directory. Go figure.
Now, is the only way to reorganise my user directory to go 'root' and
temporarily turn off UAC or is there another way to achieve this? To put it
in another way: How can I make UAC do its job all the way? And HOW would I be
able to temporarily turn UAC off by the time I loose my patience completely?
And when I say temporarily, I mean temporarily, because I do agree with the
basic idea of UAC.
Thank you.
Ernst

"Charlie Tame" wrote:

> Ernst, the UAC system is Microsoft's way of putting the horse back in
> front of the cart.
>
> The convention with Unix / Linux has always been to have one admin -
> "Root" and everyone else as users.
>
> Generally it's been the opposite with Windows.
>
> Unfortunately Vista does not "Explain" that as the "Owner" or
> "Installer" of the system you are really only a privileged "User". The
> impressions is that you are "Special" because in the past you always were.
>
> With Linux it has been convention for years that running as "Root" is a
> bad thing, and the more sophisticated the software you are using
> (Graphical User Interface for example) the more dangerous that would be
> because quite simply there's more chance of a bug letting bad things happen.
>
> So to do anything with older Linux you would sign out as "Ernst" and
> back in as "Root". Normally neither "Ernst" nor malware could do much to
> damage the system.
>
> Later versions allow "Ernst" to use the command "SUDO" (or similar) to
> temporarily gain admin rights (Root) for one specific task or groups of
> tasks.
>
> With Windows the convention has been the wrong way around, and this is a
> kind of "Legacy" carried on by the users who expect to always have
> total control at all times. Unfortunately this also gives a bad guy at
> your desktop, a bad guy with a remote terminal or bad software the same
> control.
>
> So although I think UAC is a clumsy and sometimes annoying way of trying
> to persuade people to do it the right way, it is an advisory tool that
> has some merit. It is NOT per-se increased security if you are silly and
> let things you are unaware of do what they ask, any more than the Linux
> method is "Security" if you become "Root" and let unknown software take
> actions it requests.
>
> In some circumstances signing in as "Root" might be acceptable, in your
> case it probably was, but with the amount of malware, spyware and stuff
> targeting Windows these days most users who were running as full admin
> were in danger.
>
>
>
>
> Ernst wrote:
> > Exellent explanation Jimmy. Thank You. I now, after months of using Vista and
> > hours of searching the net, understand the basic reasoning behind all my
> > suffering. It makes a lot of sense and I will definitely make myself a
> > seperate user account for daily use. Having said this I do not believe
> > Microsoft is going to get the everage Joe to go through such a steep learning
> > curve. Also, giving a program temporary administrator rights does not work
> > with my very first attempt on Explorer. A numeber of files and folders have
> > either been hidden, deleted or placed elsewhere by Vista when re-directing
> > the documents and picture folders to another drive (following directions by
> > MS Help). F.i. folders from my documents directory have ended up inside my
> > pictures directory. When trying to reorganise with Explorer (with
> > administrator rights) I still get pop ups telling me I am not authorised to
> > perform these tasks. I know MS is trying to give me control, but it sure does
> > not feel like it.
> > My only option seems to be to temporarily switch off UAC to get reorganised.
> > Any other suggestions? Ernst
> >
> > "Jimmy Brush" wrote:
> >
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I've noticed that a lot of the questions in these newsgroups are either
> >> directly or indirectly related to UAC (User Account Control). In this post,
> >> I will go over what UAC does, how it works, the reasoning behind it, how to
> >> use your computer with UAC on, why you shouldn't turn UAC off, and answer
> >> some common questions and respond to common complaints about it.
> >>
> >>
> >> * What is UAC and what does it do?
> >>
> >> UAC mode (also known as Admin Approval Mode) is a mode of operation that
> >> (primarily) affects the way administrator accounts work.
> >>
> >> When UAC is turned on (which it is by default), you must explicitly give
> >> permission to any program that wants to use "administrator" powers. Any
> >> program that tries to use admin powers without your permission will be
> >> denied access.
> >>
> >>
> >> * How does UAC work
> >>
> >> When UAC mode is enabled, every program that you run will be given only
> >> "standard user" access to the system, even when you are logged in as an
> >> administrator. There are only 2 ways that a program can be "elevated" to get
> >> full admin access to the system:
> >>
> >> - If it automatically asks you for permission when it starts up, and you
> >> click Continue
> >> - If you start the program with permission by right-clicking it, then
> >> clicking Run As Administrator
> >>
> >> A program either starts with STANDARD rights or, if you give permission,
> >> ADMINISTRATOR rights, and once the program is running it cannot change from
> >> one to the other.
> >>
> >> If a program that you have already started with admin powers starts another
> >> program, that program will automatically be given admin powers without
> >> needing your permission. For example, if you start Windows Explorer as
> >> administrator, and then double-click on a text file, notepad will open and
> >> display the contents of the text file. Since notepad was opened from the
> >> admin explorer window, notepad WILL ALSO automatically run WITH admin
> >> powers, and will not ask for permission.
> >>
> >>
> >> * What's the point of UAC?
> >>
> >> UAC is designed to put control of your computer back into your hands,
> >> instead of at the mercy of the programs running on your computer.
> >>
> >> When logged in as an administrator in Windows XP, any program that could
> >> somehow get itself started could take control of the entire computer without
> >> you even knowing about it.
> >>
> >> With UAC turned on, you must know about and authorize a program in order for
> >> it to gain admin access to the system, REGARDLESS of how the program got
> >> there or how it is started.
> >>
> >> This is important to all levels of users - from home users to enterprise
> >> administrators. Being alerted when any program tries to use admin powers and
> >> being able to unilaterally disallow a program from having such power is a
> >> VERY powerful ability. No longer is the security of the system tantamount to
> >> "crossing one's fingers and hoping for the best" - YOU now control your
> >> system.
> >>
> >>
> >> * How do I effectively use my computer with UAC turned on?
> >>
> >> It's easy. Just keep in mind that programs don't have admin access to your
> >> computer unless you give them permission. Microsoft programs that come with
> >> Windows Vista that need admin access will always ask for admin permissions
> >> when you start them. However, most other programs will not.
> >>
> >> This will change after Windows Vista is released - all Windows Vista-era
> >> programs that need admin power will always ask you for it. Until then, you
> >> will need to run programs that need administrative powers that were not
> >> designed for Windows Vista "as administrator".
> >>
> >> Command-line programs do not automatically ask for permission. Not even the
> >> built-in ones. You will need to run the command prompt "as administrator" in
> >> order to run administrative command-line utilities.
> >>
> >> Working with files and folders from Windows Explorer can be a real pain when
> >> you are not working with your own files. When you are needing to work with
> >> system files, files that you didn't create, or files from another operating
> >> system, run Windows Explorer "as administrator". In the same vein, ANY
> >> program that you run that needs access to system files or files that you
> >> didn't create will need to be ran "as administrator".
> >>
> >> If you are going to be working with the control panel for a long time,
> >> running control.exe "as administrator" will make things less painful - you
> >> will only be asked for permission once, instead of every time you try to
> >> change a system-wide setting.
> >>
> >> In short:
> >>
> >> - Run command prompt as admin when you need to run admin utilities
> >> - Run setup programs as admin
> >> - Run programs not designed for Vista as admin if (and only if) they need
> >> admin access
> >> - Run Windows Explorer as admin when you need access to files that aren't
> >> yours or system files
> >> - Run programs that need access to files that aren't yours or system files
> >> as admin
> >> - Run control.exe as admin when changing many settings in the control panel
> >>
> >>
> >> * UAC is annoying, I want to turn it off
> >>
> >> Having to go through an extra step (clicking Continue) when opening
> >> administrative programs is annoying. And it is also very frustrating to run
> >> a program that needs admin power but doesn't automatically ask you for it
> >> (you have to right-click these programs and click Run As Administrator for
> >> them to run correctly).
> >>
> >> But, keep in mind that these small inconveniences are insignificant when
> >> weighed against the benefit: NO PROGRAM can get full access to your system
> >> without you being informed. The first time the permission dialog pops up and
> >> it is from some program that you know nothing about or that you do not want
> >> to have access to your system, you will be very glad that the Cancel button
> >> was available to you.
> >>
> >>
> >> * Answers to common questions and responses to common criticism
> >>
> >> Q: I have anti-virus, a firewall, a spyware-detector, or something similar.
> >> Why do I need UAC?
> >>
> >> A: Detectors can only see known threats. And of all the known threats in
> >> existence, they only detect the most common of those threats. With UAC
> >> turned on, *you* control what programs have access to your computer - you
> >> can stop ALL threats. Detectors are nice, but they're not enough. How many
> >> people do you know that have detectors of all kinds and yet are still
> >> infested with programs that they don't want on their computer? Everyone that
> >> I have ever helped falls into this category.
> >>
> >>
> >> Q: Does UAC replace anti-virus, a firewall, a spyware-detector, or similar
> >> programs?
> >>
> >> A: No. Microsoft recommends that you use a virus scanner and/or other types
> >> of security software. These types of programs compliment UAC: They will get
> >> rid of known threats for you. UAC will allow you to stop unknown threats, as
> >> well as prevent any program that you do not trust from gaining access to
> >> your computer.
> >>
> >>
> >> Q: I am a system administrator - I have no use for UAC.
> >>
> >> A: Really? You don't NEED to know when a program on your computer runs with
> >> admin powers? You are a system administrator and you really could care less
> >> when a program runs that has full control of your system, and possibly your
> >> entire domain? You're joking, right?
> >>
> >>
> >> Q: UAC keeps me from accessing files and folders
> >>
> >> A: No, it doesn't - UAC protects you from programs that would try to delete
> >> or modify system files and folders without your knowledge. If you want a
> >> program to have full access to the files on your computer, you will need to
> >> run it as admin. Or as an alternative, if possible, put the files it needs
> >> access to in a place that all programs have access to - such as your
> >> documents folder, or any folder under your user folder.
> >>
> >>
> >> Q: UAC stops programs from working correctly
> >>
> >> A: If a program needs admin power and it doesn't ask you for permission when
> >> it starts, you have to give it admin powers by right-clicking it and
> >> clicking Run As Administrator. Programs should work like they did in XP when
> >> you use Run As Administrator. If they don't, then this is a bug.
> >>
> >>
> >> Q: UAC keeps me from doing things that I could do in XP
> >>
> >> A: This is not the case. Just remember that programs that do not ask for
> >> permission when they start do not get admin access to your computer. If you
> >> are using a tool that needs admin access, right-click it and click Run As
> >> Administrator. It should work exactly as it did in XP. If it does not, then
> >> this is a bug.
> >>
> >>
> >> Q: UAC is Microsoft's way of controlling my computer and preventing me from
> >> using it!
> >>
> >> A: This is 100% UNTRUE. UAC puts control of your computer IN YOUR HANDS by
> >> allowing you to prevent unwanted programs from accessing your computer.
> >> *Everything* that you can do with UAC turned off, you can do with it turned
> >> on. If this is not the case, then that is a bug.
> >>
> >>
> >> Q: I don't need Windows to hold my freaking hand! I *know* what I've got on
> >> my computer, and I *know* when programs run! I am logged on as an
> >> ADMINISTRATOR for a dang reason!
> >>
> >> A: I accept the way that you think, and can see the logic, but I don't agree
> >> with this idea. UAC is putting POWER in your hands by letting you CONTROL
> >> what runs on your system. But you want to give up this control and allow all
> >> programs to run willy-nilly. Look, if you want to do this go right ahead,
> >> you can turn UAC off and things will return to how they worked in XP. But,
> >> don't be surprised when either 1) You run something by mistake that messes
> >> up your computer and/or domain, or 2) A program somehow gets on your
> >> computer that you know nothing about that takes over your computer and/or
> >> domain, and UAC would have allowed you to have stopped it.
> >>
> >>
> >> - JB
> >>
> >> Vista Support FAQ
> >> http://www.jimmah.com/vista/
> >>
>

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:09:02 -0700, Ernst
<Ernst@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>Charlie, Thank you for this extensive respons. Yes I understand what you are
>saying, but this was already clear to me from the earlier part of the thread.
>I also agree with the principal behind it. I have worked for many years with
>firewalls like ZoneAlarm and Comodo that use a similar principal: Ask the
>user what program is allowed access (the computer or the internet). However,
>these firewalls have never stopped me from doing the work that I need doing
>on my PC. UAC is.

I stopped reading at this point (it would have been a lot easier to
continue reading if you had used paragraphing).

If UAC is interferring, you have two choices:

1) download and run TweakUAC which will force UAC to run in "silent
mode" and will greatly reduce the prompts you get. It will still
permit IE to run in "protected mode".

2) disable UAC entirely.

>If this UAC is applied it should work properly, both in
>protection AND in giving access when given permission by me as administrator
>to do so. As I have described in my previous post, I cannot copy files within
>my user directory (from pictures to documents) even after starting Explorer
>up with administrator rights (right mouse button). Vista Home still tells me
>I do not have the correct authorisation. Never mind the fact that my owner
>directory is a mess after having stored (diverted) subdirectories on a
>different drive using the directions provided by Help. Basically this is a
>different problem, but they might be related. Ever since redirecting the
>pictures and the documents folders to the D-drive, the folder I had stored
>them in on the D-Drive has disappeared from view, including all the other
>files and subdirectories that it contained. I guess they are all still
>somewhere on the system, but I cannot see and thus cannot access them
>anymore. Other files and folders have switched directory. The example I gave
>was my bookkeeping folder. This folder used to be stored in 'Documents'.
>Since the divertion it is stored in the 'Pictures' directory. Go figure.
>Now, is the only way to reorganise my user directory to go 'root' and
>temporarily turn off UAC or is there another way to achieve this? To put it
>in another way: How can I make UAC do its job all the way? And HOW would I be
>able to temporarily turn UAC off by the time I loose my patience completely?
>And when I say temporarily, I mean temporarily, because I do agree with the
>basic idea of UAC.
>Thank you.
>Ernst
>
>"Charlie Tame" wrote:
>
>> Ernst, the UAC system is Microsoft's way of putting the horse back in
>> front of the cart.
>>
>> The convention with Unix / Linux has always been to have one admin -
>> "Root" and everyone else as users.
>>
>> Generally it's been the opposite with Windows.
>>
>> Unfortunately Vista does not "Explain" that as the "Owner" or
>> "Installer" of the system you are really only a privileged "User". The
>> impressions is that you are "Special" because in the past you always were.
>>
>> With Linux it has been convention for years that running as "Root" is a
>> bad thing, and the more sophisticated the software you are using
>> (Graphical User Interface for example) the more dangerous that would be
>> because quite simply there's more chance of a bug letting bad things happen.
>>
>> So to do anything with older Linux you would sign out as "Ernst" and
>> back in as "Root". Normally neither "Ernst" nor malware could do much to
>> damage the system.
>>
>> Later versions allow "Ernst" to use the command "SUDO" (or similar) to
>> temporarily gain admin rights (Root) for one specific task or groups of
>> tasks.
>>
>> With Windows the convention has been the wrong way around, and this is a
>> kind of "Legacy" carried on by the users who expect to always have
>> total control at all times. Unfortunately this also gives a bad guy at
>> your desktop, a bad guy with a remote terminal or bad software the same
>> control.
>>
>> So although I think UAC is a clumsy and sometimes annoying way of trying
>> to persuade people to do it the right way, it is an advisory tool that
>> has some merit. It is NOT per-se increased security if you are silly and
>> let things you are unaware of do what they ask, any more than the Linux
>> method is "Security" if you become "Root" and let unknown software take
>> actions it requests.
>>
>> In some circumstances signing in as "Root" might be acceptable, in your
>> case it probably was, but with the amount of malware, spyware and stuff
>> targeting Windows these days most users who were running as full admin
>> were in danger.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ernst wrote:
>> > Exellent explanation Jimmy. Thank You. I now, after months of using Vista and
>> > hours of searching the net, understand the basic reasoning behind all my
>> > suffering. It makes a lot of sense and I will definitely make myself a
>> > seperate user account for daily use. Having said this I do not believe
>> > Microsoft is going to get the everage Joe to go through such a steep learning
>> > curve. Also, giving a program temporary administrator rights does not work
>> > with my very first attempt on Explorer. A numeber of files and folders have
>> > either been hidden, deleted or placed elsewhere by Vista when re-directing
>> > the documents and picture folders to another drive (following directions by
>> > MS Help). F.i. folders from my documents directory have ended up inside my
>> > pictures directory. When trying to reorganise with Explorer (with
>> > administrator rights) I still get pop ups telling me I am not authorised to
>> > perform these tasks. I know MS is trying to give me control, but it sure does
>> > not feel like it.
>> > My only option seems to be to temporarily switch off UAC to get reorganised.
>> > Any other suggestions? Ernst
>> >
>> > "Jimmy Brush" wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> I've noticed that a lot of the questions in these newsgroups are either
>> >> directly or indirectly related to UAC (User Account Control). In this post,
>> >> I will go over what UAC does, how it works, the reasoning behind it, how to
>> >> use your computer with UAC on, why you shouldn't turn UAC off, and answer
>> >> some common questions and respond to common complaints about it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> * What is UAC and what does it do?
>> >>
>> >> UAC mode (also known as Admin Approval Mode) is a mode of operation that
>> >> (primarily) affects the way administrator accounts work.
>> >>
>> >> When UAC is turned on (which it is by default), you must explicitly give
>> >> permission to any program that wants to use "administrator" powers. Any
>> >> program that tries to use admin powers without your permission will be
>> >> denied access.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> * How does UAC work
>> >>
>> >> When UAC mode is enabled, every program that you run will be given only
>> >> "standard user" access to the system, even when you are logged in as an
>> >> administrator. There are only 2 ways that a program can be "elevated" to get
>> >> full admin access to the system:
>> >>
>> >> - If it automatically asks you for permission when it starts up, and you
>> >> click Continue
>> >> - If you start the program with permission by right-clicking it, then
>> >> clicking Run As Administrator
>> >>
>> >> A program either starts with STANDARD rights or, if you give permission,
>> >> ADMINISTRATOR rights, and once the program is running it cannot change from
>> >> one to the other.
>> >>
>> >> If a program that you have already started with admin powers starts another
>> >> program, that program will automatically be given admin powers without
>> >> needing your permission. For example, if you start Windows Explorer as
>> >> administrator, and then double-click on a text file, notepad will open and
>> >> display the contents of the text file. Since notepad was opened from the
>> >> admin explorer window, notepad WILL ALSO automatically run WITH admin
>> >> powers, and will not ask for permission.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> * What's the point of UAC?
>> >>
>> >> UAC is designed to put control of your computer back into your hands,
>> >> instead of at the mercy of the programs running on your computer.
>> >>
>> >> When logged in as an administrator in Windows XP, any program that could
>> >> somehow get itself started could take control of the entire computer without
>> >> you even knowing about it.
>> >>
>> >> With UAC turned on, you must know about and authorize a program in order for
>> >> it to gain admin access to the system, REGARDLESS of how the program got
>> >> there or how it is started.
>> >>
>> >> This is important to all levels of users - from home users to enterprise
>> >> administrators. Being alerted when any program tries to use admin powers and
>> >> being able to unilaterally disallow a program from having such power is a
>> >> VERY powerful ability. No longer is the security of the system tantamount to
>> >> "crossing one's fingers and hoping for the best" - YOU now control your
>> >> system.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> * How do I effectively use my computer with UAC turned on?
>> >>
>> >> It's easy. Just keep in mind that programs don't have admin access to your
>> >> computer unless you give them permission. Microsoft programs that come with
>> >> Windows Vista that need admin access will always ask for admin permissions
>> >> when you start them. However, most other programs will not.
>> >>
>> >> This will change after Windows Vista is released - all Windows Vista-era
>> >> programs that need admin power will always ask you for it. Until then, you
>> >> will need to run programs that need administrative powers that were not
>> >> designed for Windows Vista "as administrator".
>> >>
>> >> Command-line programs do not automatically ask for permission. Not even the
>> >> built-in ones. You will need to run the command prompt "as administrator" in
>> >> order to run administrative command-line utilities.
>> >>
>> >> Working with files and folders from Windows Explorer can be a real pain when
>> >> you are not working with your own files. When you are needing to work with
>> >> system files, files that you didn't create, or files from another operating
>> >> system, run Windows Explorer "as administrator". In the same vein, ANY
>> >> program that you run that needs access to system files or files that you
>> >> didn't create will need to be ran "as administrator".
>> >>
>> >> If you are going to be working with the control panel for a long time,
>> >> running control.exe "as administrator" will make things less painful - you
>> >> will only be asked for permission once, instead of every time you try to
>> >> change a system-wide setting.
>> >>
>> >> In short:
>> >>
>> >> - Run command prompt as admin when you need to run admin utilities
>> >> - Run setup programs as admin
>> >> - Run programs not designed for Vista as admin if (and only if) they need
>> >> admin access
>> >> - Run Windows Explorer as admin when you need access to files that aren't
>> >> yours or system files
>> >> - Run programs that need access to files that aren't yours or system files
>> >> as admin
>> >> - Run control.exe as admin when changing many settings in the control panel
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> * UAC is annoying, I want to turn it off
>> >>
>> >> Having to go through an extra step (clicking Continue) when opening
>> >> administrative programs is annoying. And it is also very frustrating to run
>> >> a program that needs admin power but doesn't automatically ask you for it
>> >> (you have to right-click these programs and click Run As Administrator for
>> >> them to run correctly).
>> >>
>> >> But, keep in mind that these small inconveniences are insignificant when
>> >> weighed against the benefit: NO PROGRAM can get full access to your system
>> >> without you being informed. The first time the permission dialog pops up and
>> >> it is from some program that you know nothing about or that you do not want
>> >> to have access to your system, you will be very glad that the Cancel button
>> >> was available to you.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> * Answers to common questions and responses to common criticism
>> >>
>> >> Q: I have anti-virus, a firewall, a spyware-detector, or something similar.
>> >> Why do I need UAC?
>> >>
>> >> A: Detectors can only see known threats. And of all the known threats in
>> >> existence, they only detect the most common of those threats. With UAC
>> >> turned on, *you* control what programs have access to your computer - you
>> >> can stop ALL threats. Detectors are nice, but they're not enough. How many
>> >> people do you know that have detectors of all kinds and yet are still
>> >> infested with programs that they don't want on their computer? Everyone that
>> >> I have ever helped falls into this category.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Q: Does UAC replace anti-virus, a firewall, a spyware-detector, or similar
>> >> programs?
>> >>
>> >> A: No. Microsoft recommends that you use a virus scanner and/or other types
>> >> of security software. These types of programs compliment UAC: They will get
>> >> rid of known threats for you. UAC will allow you to stop unknown threats, as
>> >> well as prevent any program that you do not trust from gaining access to
>> >> your computer.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Q: I am a system administrator - I have no use for UAC.
>> >>
>> >> A: Really? You don't NEED to know when a program on your computer runs with
>> >> admin powers? You are a system administrator and you really could care less
>> >> when a program runs that has full control of your system, and possibly your
>> >> entire domain? You're joking, right?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Q: UAC keeps me from accessing files and folders
>> >>
>> >> A: No, it doesn't - UAC protects you from programs that would try to delete
>> >> or modify system files and folders without your knowledge. If you want a
>> >> program to have full access to the files on your computer, you will need to
>> >> run it as admin. Or as an alternative, if possible, put the files it needs
>> >> access to in a place that all programs have access to - such as your
>> >> documents folder, or any folder under your user folder.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Q: UAC stops programs from working correctly
>> >>
>> >> A: If a program needs admin power and it doesn't ask you for permission when
>> >> it starts, you have to give it admin powers by right-clicking it and
>> >> clicking Run As Administrator. Programs should work like they did in XP when
>> >> you use Run As Administrator. If they don't, then this is a bug.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Q: UAC keeps me from doing things that I could do in XP
>> >>
>> >> A: This is not the case. Just remember that programs that do not ask for
>> >> permission when they start do not get admin access to your computer. If you
>> >> are using a tool that needs admin access, right-click it and click Run As
>> >> Administrator. It should work exactly as it did in XP. If it does not, then
>> >> this is a bug.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Q: UAC is Microsoft's way of controlling my computer and preventing me from
>> >> using it!
>> >>
>> >> A: This is 100% UNTRUE. UAC puts control of your computer IN YOUR HANDS by
>> >> allowing you to prevent unwanted programs from accessing your computer.
>> >> *Everything* that you can do with UAC turned off, you can do with it turned
>> >> on. If this is not the case, then that is a bug.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Q: I don't need Windows to hold my freaking hand! I *know* what I've got on
>> >> my computer, and I *know* when programs run! I am logged on as an
>> >> ADMINISTRATOR for a dang reason!
>> >>
>> >> A: I accept the way that you think, and can see the logic, but I don't agree
>> >> with this idea. UAC is putting POWER in your hands by letting you CONTROL
>> >> what runs on your system. But you want to give up this control and allow all
>> >> programs to run willy-nilly. Look, if you want to do this go right ahead,
>> >> you can turn UAC off and things will return to how they worked in XP. But,
>> >> don't be surprised when either 1) You run something by mistake that messes
>> >> up your computer and/or domain, or 2) A program somehow gets on your
>> >> computer that you know nothing about that takes over your computer and/or
>> >> domain, and UAC would have allowed you to have stopped it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> - JB
>> >>
>> >> Vista Support FAQ
>> >> http://www.jimmah.com/vista/
>> >>
>>

"Ernst" <Ernst@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:7ABC1D88-874F-41A7-94FC-5A9B4084E284@microsoft.com...
> Charlie, Thank you for this extensive respons. Yes I understand what you
> are
> saying, but this was already clear to me from the earlier part of the
> thread.
> I also agree with the principal behind it. I have worked for many years
> with
> firewalls like ZoneAlarm and Comodo that use a similar principal: Ask the
> user what program is allowed access (the computer or the internet).
> However,
> these firewalls have never stopped me from doing the work that I need
> doing
> on my PC. UAC is.

Vista hides and disables the actual most privileged account to make it
harder
for users to take that lazy and less secure option. It creates the
"Administrator"
account so the administrator can get most of the access he or she needs with
an "Admin Approval Mode" feat