I don't think you need anti-virus with Vista

I've created a new thread for this because it is seriously off-topic for the
original thread (see "Vista Key.." below).

I wrote:

>>
I've been running Vista Home Premium since 31st January, WITHOUT any
anti-virus software at all, and in fact no other security software
whatsoever apart from what comes "in the box". It is powered up all the
time and permanently connected to the Internet via a router.

It has remained absolutely clean as a whistle. No malware whatsoever.
<<

Alias responded with a very reasonable question:

> How would you know? There are millions of computers controlled by bot
> nets without the computer owner's knowledge. Root kits and spyware don't
> exactly pop up and say, "hey look at me".

And some rather less eloquent person called john declared:

> what a load...

Here's how I know: because last week I tried two separate
"we'll-scan-your-PC" services offered by well known anti-virus vendors, who
are hoping to scare you into buying their products. Did it a couple of
times in previous months, too. Also I've got a NOD32 licence (which I don't
use) but I installed it temporarily to see what it said.

So, then, that's three separate scans from three separate vendors, and not a
single peep.

I've also got PC Tools antispyware (again which I don't use), but installed
it temporarily. Again, clean as a whistle. Nothing from Vista's built-in
anti-malware thing either.

Let me ask you something, John and Alias, and you've got to answer
truthfully: when was the last time your anti-virus / security software
popped up and warned you that there was an infection in your machine (or it
had just stopped an infection)?

I'll tell you my answer: I honestly can't remember. I've been using PCs
since well before Windows existed and in truth I've got a vague memory from
(literally) years ago that I once saw a warning, but it is very vague and
maybe it was from one of the test files you can get.

Having bought a second computer two years ago, I decided to experiment by
leaving it connected full time to the Internet with NO protection whatsoever
(I kept using NOD32 on my main machine). For the first year it ran XP SP2,
for the second year it ran Vista Home Premium. I scanned it three times in
the first year, and I've scanned it three times this year, and in EVERY
instance it was completely clean.

Avoiding malware is easy. Here is my three-step guide...

1/ Always connect to the Internet via a router with NAT and a built-in
firewall (i.e. all modern routers), NOT a USB modem.

2/ Use an ISP that offers virus and malware scanning on incoming emails
(they all do, these days).

3/ Use a modicum of common sense when downloading files and programs, and in
particular make sure they come from a reputable source.

4/ And in Vista, do NOT disable UAC (because it disables IE7's protected
mode): instead, make your account an administrator and then set UAC so it
does not require your password, just a click (this does not reduce your
protection significantly, and makes UAC perfectly bearable). Leave the
other security settings at their default.

Yes, I know that's four steps, rather than three, but the final step only
applies to Vista.

With this experience, I'm more convinced than ever that security products
over and above what comes with Vista "in the box" are, for me, completely
unnecessary and a waste of money.

Is anyone else brave enough to reject the current paranoid paradigm?

SteveT.

Trust me, you need Antivirus for Windows Vista, I am running Vista x64 and I
was surprised when I did a scan with Norton AV Corporate Edition 10.2 it
fold several Trojan horses and viruses under C:/Windows which successfully
cleaned and deleted. But regardless of all the security technologies that
come built into the OS, hackers are constantly attacking the platform and
finding new ways to infiltrate the system. That is why you have Antivirus to
stay one step ahead.
--
Andre
Blog: http://adacosta.spaces.live.com
My Vista Quickstart Guide:
http://adacosta.spaces.live.com/blog...3DB!9709.entry
"Steve Thackery" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:eAFIU93NIHA.4476@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> I've created a new thread for this because it is seriously off-topic for
> the original thread (see "Vista Key.." below).
>
> I wrote:
>
>>>
> I've been running Vista Home Premium since 31st January, WITHOUT any
> anti-virus software at all, and in fact no other security software
> whatsoever apart from what comes "in the box". It is powered up all the
> time and permanently connected to the Internet via a router.
>
> It has remained absolutely clean as a whistle. No malware whatsoever.
> <<
>
> Alias responded with a very reasonable question:
>
>> How would you know? There are millions of computers controlled by bot
>> nets without the computer owner's knowledge. Root kits and spyware don't
>> exactly pop up and say, "hey look at me".
>
> And some rather less eloquent person called john declared:
>
>> what a load...
>
> Here's how I know: because last week I tried two separate
> "we'll-scan-your-PC" services offered by well known anti-virus vendors,
> who are hoping to scare you into buying their products. Did it a couple
> of times in previous months, too. Also I've got a NOD32 licence (which I
> don't use) but I installed it temporarily to see what it said.
>
> So, then, that's three separate scans from three separate vendors, and not
> a single peep.
>
> I've also got PC Tools antispyware (again which I don't use), but
> installed it temporarily. Again, clean as a whistle. Nothing from
> Vista's built-in anti-malware thing either.
>
> Let me ask you something, John and Alias, and you've got to answer
> truthfully: when was the last time your anti-virus / security software
> popped up and warned you that there was an infection in your machine (or
> it had just stopped an infection)?
>
> I'll tell you my answer: I honestly can't remember. I've been using PCs
> since well before Windows existed and in truth I've got a vague memory
> from (literally) years ago that I once saw a warning, but it is very vague
> and maybe it was from one of the test files you can get.
>
> Having bought a second computer two years ago, I decided to experiment by
> leaving it connected full time to the Internet with NO protection
> whatsoever (I kept using NOD32 on my main machine). For the first year it
> ran XP SP2, for the second year it ran Vista Home Premium. I scanned it
> three times in the first year, and I've scanned it three times this year,
> and in EVERY instance it was completely clean.
>
> Avoiding malware is easy. Here is my three-step guide...
>
> 1/ Always connect to the Internet via a router with NAT and a built-in
> firewall (i.e. all modern routers), NOT a USB modem.
>
> 2/ Use an ISP that offers virus and malware scanning on incoming emails
> (they all do, these days).
>
> 3/ Use a modicum of common sense when downloading files and programs, and
> in particular make sure they come from a reputable source.
>
> 4/ And in Vista, do NOT disable UAC (because it disables IE7's protected
> mode): instead, make your account an administrator and then set UAC so it
> does not require your password, just a click (this does not reduce your
> protection significantly, and makes UAC perfectly bearable). Leave the
> other security settings at their default.
>
> Yes, I know that's four steps, rather than three, but the final step only
> applies to Vista.
>
> With this experience, I'm more convinced than ever that security products
> over and above what comes with Vista "in the box" are, for me, completely
> unnecessary and a waste of money.
>
> Is anyone else brave enough to reject the current paranoid paradigm?
>
> SteveT.

"Steve Thackery" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:eAFIU93NIHA.4476@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

> With this experience, I'm more convinced than ever that security products
> over and above what comes with Vista "in the box" are, for me, completely
> unnecessary and a waste of money.
>
> Is anyone else brave enough to reject the current paranoid paradigm?

I haven't got around to installing any AV on my Windows Vista machines, the
machines are all locked down and only I can install things. Most infections
come about my a user executing the virus to start with.

--
Paul Smith,
Yeovil, UK.
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User.
http://www.dasmirnov.net/blog/
http://www.windowsresource.net/

*Remove nospam. to reply by e-mail*

Steve Thackery wrote:
> I've created a new thread for this because it is seriously off-topic
> for the original thread (see "Vista Key.." below).
>
> I wrote:
>
>>>
> I've been running Vista Home Premium since 31st January, WITHOUT any
> anti-virus software at all, and in fact no other security software
> whatsoever apart from what comes "in the box". It is powered up all
> the time and permanently connected to the Internet via a router.
>
> It has remained absolutely clean as a whistle. No malware whatsoever.
> <<
>
> Alias responded with a very reasonable question:
>
>> How would you know? There are millions of computers controlled by bot
>> nets without the computer owner's knowledge. Root kits and spyware
>> don't exactly pop up and say, "hey look at me".
>
> And some rather less eloquent person called john declared:
>
>> what a load...
>
> Here's how I know: because last week I tried two separate
> "we'll-scan-your-PC" services offered by well known anti-virus
> vendors, who are hoping to scare you into buying their products. Did
> it a couple of times in previous months, too. Also I've got a NOD32
> licence (which I don't use) but I installed it temporarily to see
> what it said.
> So, then, that's three separate scans from three separate vendors,
> and not a single peep.
>
> I've also got PC Tools antispyware (again which I don't use), but
> installed it temporarily. Again, clean as a whistle. Nothing from
> Vista's built-in anti-malware thing either.
>
> Let me ask you something, John and Alias, and you've got to answer
> truthfully: when was the last time your anti-virus / security software
> popped up and warned you that there was an infection in your machine
> (or it had just stopped an infection)?
>
> I'll tell you my answer: I honestly can't remember. I've been using
> PCs since well before Windows existed and in truth I've got a vague
> memory from (literally) years ago that I once saw a warning, but it
> is very vague and maybe it was from one of the test files you can get.
>
> Having bought a second computer two years ago, I decided to
> experiment by leaving it connected full time to the Internet with NO
> protection whatsoever (I kept using NOD32 on my main machine). For
> the first year it ran XP SP2, for the second year it ran Vista Home
> Premium. I scanned it three times in the first year, and I've
> scanned it three times this year, and in EVERY instance it was
> completely clean.
> Avoiding malware is easy. Here is my three-step guide...
>
> 1/ Always connect to the Internet via a router with NAT and a built-in
> firewall (i.e. all modern routers), NOT a USB modem.
>
> 2/ Use an ISP that offers virus and malware scanning on incoming
> emails (they all do, these days).
>
> 3/ Use a modicum of common sense when downloading files and programs,
> and in particular make sure they come from a reputable source.
>
> 4/ And in Vista, do NOT disable UAC (because it disables IE7's
> protected mode): instead, make your account an administrator and then
> set UAC so it does not require your password, just a click (this does
> not reduce your protection significantly, and makes UAC perfectly
> bearable). Leave the other security settings at their default.
>
> Yes, I know that's four steps, rather than three, but the final step
> only applies to Vista.
>
> With this experience, I'm more convinced than ever that security
> products over and above what comes with Vista "in the box" are, for
> me, completely unnecessary and a waste of money.
>
> Is anyone else brave enough to reject the current paranoid paradigm?
>
> SteveT.

I agree with all of that. And not just Vista, but XP too.
I have a modem/router and use CCleaner and that's it.
A couple of years ago I tried Norton , on XP, but it slowed everything up so I ditched it.
Tried a couple of other antivirus programs but they found/reported nothing apart
from cookies so didn't bother in the end.
The last virus I got was with XP (before SP1), can't remember the name of it.
If you can run stuff like Autoruns and Erunt you don't need to get bogged down
with antivirus programs crippling you.
..

"Steve Thackery" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in news:eAFIU93NIHA.4476
@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:

>
> Avoiding malware is easy. Here is my three-step guide...

Which avoids that many viruses pass machine to machine via LOCAL network
shares.

Of course, this may not apply in your situation, if you're a single
user/machine behind your firewall/router, but there appears to be a (naive)
assumption that what is local is safe.



--
Please remove my_pants when replying by email.

On Dec 5, 3:40 pm, "Steve Thackery" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>SNIP

I agree that with a machine behind a firewall, you are much safer than
someone who is attached directly to the internet, but there are lots
of ways to get things onto your pc and you don't even have to click on
anything to have it happen.

You are right that AV software is reactive so it is always behind the
curve, but it still serves a purpose. And at $30-35 a year, it is well
worth the cost if it saves your $1000 pc just once from being
clobbered by some virus or trojan.

You're also correct in saying that most people are to blame for
getting malware on their machines, but that's just a fact of life.
I've been using pcs for about 25 years and I can still hit one key
when I meant to hit another. People are not perfect and never will be.

When was the last time I personally saw a machine that was infected
with a virus? Today. So, while you're experience is no less valid, it
isn't typical.

Don't mean to be argumentative, so I apologize if that's the way I
sound.

Later,

Andy C.(never #)

Andy C.(never #) wrote:

<Snip>

> When was the last time I personally saw a machine that was infected
> with a virus? Today. So, while you're experience is no less valid, it
> isn't typical.
>

Just out of interest, could you tell us the name of the virus and the name of the
antivirus program that flagged it ?
Thanks.
..

"Andre Da Costa[ActiveWin]" <andred25@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%23Y3v1J4NIHA.1184@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> Trust me, you need Antivirus for Windows Vista, I am running Vista x64 and
> I was surprised when I did a scan with Norton AV Corporate Edition 10.2 it
> fold several Trojan horses and viruses under C:/Windows which successfully
> cleaned and deleted. But regardless of all the security technologies that
> come built into the OS, hackers are constantly attacking the platform and
> finding new ways to infiltrate the system. That is why you have Antivirus
> to stay one step ahead.
> --

this all reminds me of this bit from last year:

Allchin Suggests Vista Won't Need Antivirus
By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews
November 9, 2006, 4:26 PM
During a telephone conference with reporters yesterday, outgoing Microsoft
co-president Jim Allchin, while touting the new security features of Windows
Vista, which was released to manufacturing yesterday, told a reporter that
the system's new lockdown features are so capable and thorough that he was
comfortable with his own seven-year-old son using Vista without antivirus
software installed.

On the other hand, he also said this:

"I'm not sure how the company lost sight of what matters to our customers,
both business and home, the most, but in my view we lost our way. I think
our teams lost sight of what bug-free means, what resilience means, what
full scenarios mean, what security means, what performance means, how
important current applications are, and really understanding what the most
important problems our customers face are"
- Jim Allchin, former Platform Products and Services Group, Microsoft.

and this:

"I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft."
- Jim Allchin, former Platform Products and Services Group, Microsoft.

That was taken out of context and I believe he made him self much clearer by
insisting that Antivirus is still recommended. What he was trying to really
say was the new feature in Vista - ALSR (Address space layout randomization)
would make it more difficult to easily compromise the operating system
because it involves arranging the positions of key data areas.
--
Andre
Blog: http://adacosta.spaces.live.com
My Vista Quickstart Guide:
http://adacosta.spaces.live.com/blog...3DB!9709.entry
"john" <john@msn.com> wrote in message
news:O3fMSC5NIHA.3556@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>
> "Andre Da Costa[ActiveWin]" <andred25@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:%23Y3v1J4NIHA.1184@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> Trust me, you need Antivirus for Windows Vista, I am running Vista x64
>> and I was surprised when I did a scan with Norton AV Corporate Edition
>> 10.2 it fold several Trojan horses and viruses under C:/Windows which
>> successfully cleaned and deleted. But regardless of all the security
>> technologies that come built into the OS, hackers are constantly
>> attacking the platform and finding new ways to infiltrate the system.
>> That is why you have Antivirus to stay one step ahead.
>> --
>
> this all reminds me of this bit from last year:
>
> Allchin Suggests Vista Won't Need Antivirus
> By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews
> November 9, 2006, 4:26 PM
> During a telephone conference with reporters yesterday, outgoing Microsoft
> co-president Jim Allchin, while touting the new security features of
> Windows
> Vista, which was released to manufacturing yesterday, told a reporter that
> the system's new lockdown features are so capable and thorough that he was
> comfortable with his own seven-year-old son using Vista without antivirus
> software installed.
>
> On the other hand, he also said this:
>
> "I'm not sure how the company lost sight of what matters to our customers,
> both business and home, the most, but in my view we lost our way. I think
> our teams lost sight of what bug-free means, what resilience means, what
> full scenarios mean, what security means, what performance means, how
> important current applications are, and really understanding what the most
> important problems our customers face are"
> - Jim Allchin, former Platform Products and Services Group, Microsoft.
>
> and this:
>
> "I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft."
> - Jim Allchin, former Platform Products and Services Group, Microsoft.
>

> Trust me, you need Antivirus for Windows Vista...

Trust me, I don't. I've run for two years (the first year XP SP2),
continuously connected to the Internet via a router, and last week I scanned
with three different virus scanners.

Zip.

SteveT