RE: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permission scre

Interesting point, Mike. Thank you. I am currently using a trial version of
Symantec's Internet Security version 10.2.0.30 that was pre-installed as OEM
software on my MSI PR 200 laptop. It shows a copyright registration of 2006.
I have looked on the Symantec site, but I could not determine the Vista
compatibility.
I also use Hitman Pro which updates itself and it's underlying software on a
regular basis.
Ernst


"Michael D. Ober" wrote:

> Question - is the AV software you're using certified for Vista? The reason
> I asked is that I had similar problems until I upgraded my AV software from
> "compatible with" to a version that was "certified".
>
> Mike Ober.
>
>
> "Ernst" <Ernst@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:7ABC1D88-874F-41A7-94FC-5A9B4084E284@microsoft.com...
> > Charlie, Thank you for this extensive respons. Yes I understand what you
> > are
> > saying, but this was already clear to me from the earlier part of the
> > thread.
> > I also agree with the principal behind it. I have worked for many years
> > with
> > firewalls like ZoneAlarm and Comodo that use a similar principal: Ask the
> > user what program is allowed access (the computer or the internet).
> > However,
> > these firewalls have never stopped me from doing the work that I need
> > doing
> > on my PC. UAC is. If this UAC is applied it should work properly, both in
> > protection AND in giving access when given permission by me as
> > administrator
> > to do so. As I have described in my previous post, I cannot copy files
> > within
> > my user directory (from pictures to documents) even after starting
> > Explorer
> > up with administrator rights (right mouse button). Vista Home still tells
> > me
> > I do not have the correct authorisation. Never mind the fact that my owner
> > directory is a mess after having stored (diverted) subdirectories on a
> > different drive using the directions provided by Help. Basically this is a
> > different problem, but they might be related. Ever since redirecting the
> > pictures and the documents folders to the D-drive, the folder I had stored
> > them in on the D-Drive has disappeared from view, including all the other
> > files and subdirectories that it contained. I guess they are all still
> > somewhere on the system, but I cannot see and thus cannot access them
> > anymore. Other files and folders have switched directory. The example I
> > gave
> > was my bookkeeping folder. This folder used to be stored in 'Documents'.
> > Since the divertion it is stored in the 'Pictures' directory. Go figure.
> > Now, is the only way to reorganise my user directory to go 'root' and
> > temporarily turn off UAC or is there another way to achieve this? To put
> > it
> > in another way: How can I make UAC do its job all the way? And HOW would I
> > be
> > able to temporarily turn UAC off by the time I loose my patience
> > completely?
> > And when I say temporarily, I mean temporarily, because I do agree with
> > the
> > basic idea of UAC.
> > Thank you.
> > Ernst
> >
> > "Charlie Tame" wrote:
> >
> >> Ernst, the UAC system is Microsoft's way of putting the horse back in
> >> front of the cart.
> >>
> >> The convention with Unix / Linux has always been to have one admin -
> >> "Root" and everyone else as users.
> >>
> >> Generally it's been the opposite with Windows.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately Vista does not "Explain" that as the "Owner" or
> >> "Installer" of the system you are really only a privileged "User". The
> >> impressions is that you are "Special" because in the past you always
> >> were.
> >>
> >> With Linux it has been convention for years that running as "Root" is a
> >> bad thing, and the more sophisticated the software you are using
> >> (Graphical User Interface for example) the more dangerous that would be
> >> because quite simply there's more chance of a bug letting bad things
> >> happen.
> >>
> >> So to do anything with older Linux you would sign out as "Ernst" and
> >> back in as "Root". Normally neither "Ernst" nor malware could do much to
> >> damage the system.
> >>
> >> Later versions allow "Ernst" to use the command "SUDO" (or similar) to
> >> temporarily gain admin rights (Root) for one specific task or groups of
> >> tasks.
> >>
> >> With Windows the convention has been the wrong way around, and this is a
> >> kind of "Legacy" carried on by the users who expect to always have
> >> total control at all times. Unfortunately this also gives a bad guy at
> >> your desktop, a bad guy with a remote terminal or bad software the same
> >> control.
> >>
> >> So although I think UAC is a clumsy and sometimes annoying way of trying
> >> to persuade people to do it the right way, it is an advisory tool that
> >> has some merit. It is NOT per-se increased security if you are silly and
> >> let things you are unaware of do what they ask, any more than the Linux
> >> method is "Security" if you become "Root" and let unknown software take
> >> actions it requests.
> >>
> >> In some circumstances signing in as "Root" might be acceptable, in your
> >> case it probably was, but with the amount of malware, spyware and stuff
> >> targeting Windows these days most users who were running as full admin
> >> were in danger.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Ernst wrote:
> >> > Exellent explanation Jimmy. Thank You. I now, after months of using
> >> > Vista and
> >> > hours of searching the net, understand the basic reasoning behind all
> >> > my
> >> > suffering. It makes a lot of sense and I will definitely make myself a
> >> > seperate user account for daily use. Having said this I do not believe
> >> > Microsoft is going to get the everage Joe to go through such a steep
> >> > learning
> >> > curve. Also, giving a program temporary administrator rights does not
> >> > work
> >> > with my very first attempt on Explorer. A numeber of files and folders
> >> > have
> >> > either been hidden, deleted or placed elsewhere by Vista when
> >> > re-directing
> >> > the documents and picture folders to another drive (following
> >> > directions by
> >> > MS Help). F.i. folders from my documents directory have ended up inside
> >> > my
> >> > pictures directory. When trying to reorganise with Explorer (with
> >> > administrator rights) I still get pop ups telling me I am not
> >> > authorised to
> >> > perform these tasks. I know MS is trying to give me control, but it
> >> > sure does
> >> > not feel like it.
> >> > My only option seems to be to temporarily switch off UAC to get
> >> > reorganised.
> >> > Any other suggestions? Ernst
> >> >
> >> > "Jimmy Brush" wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hello,
> >> >>
> >> >> I've noticed that a lot of the questions in these newsgroups are
> >> >> either
> >> >> directly or indirectly related to UAC (User Account Control). In this
> >> >> post,
> >> >> I will go over what UAC does, how it works, the reasoning behind it,
> >> >> how to
> >> >> use your computer with UAC on, why you shouldn't turn UAC off, and
> >> >> answer
> >> >> some common questions and respond to common complaints about it.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> * What is UAC and what does it do?
> >> >>
> >> >> UAC mode (also known as Admin Approval Mode) is a mode of operation
> >> >> that
> >> >> (primarily) affects the way administrator accounts work.
> >> >>
> >> >> When UAC is turned on (which it is by default), you must explicitly
> >> >> give
> >> >> permission to any program that wants to use "administrator" powers.
> >> >> Any
> >> >> program that tries to use admin powers without your permission will be
> >> >> denied access.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> * How does UAC work
> >> >>
> >> >> When UAC mode is enabled, every program that you run will be given
> >> >> only
> >> >> "standard user" access to the system, even when you are logged in as
> >> >> an
> >> >> administrator. There are only 2 ways that a program can be "elevated"
> >> >> to get
> >> >> full admin access to the system:
> >> >>
> >> >> - If it automatically asks you for permission when it starts up, and
> >> >> you
> >> >> click Continue
> >> >> - If you start the program with permission by right-clicking it, then
> >> >> clicking Run As Administrator
> >> >>
> >> >> A program either starts with STANDARD rights or, if you give
> >> >> permission,
> >> >> ADMINISTRATOR rights, and once the program is running it cannot change
> >> >> from
> >> >> one to the other.
> >> >>
> >> >> If a program that you have already started with admin powers starts
> >> >> another
> >> >> program, that program will automatically be given admin powers without
> >> >> needing your permission. For example, if you start Windows Explorer as
> >> >> administrator, and then double-click on a text file, notepad will open
> >> >> and
> >> >> display the contents of the text file. Since notepad was opened from
> >> >> the
> >> >> admin explorer window, notepad WILL ALSO automatically run WITH admin
> >> >> powers, and will not ask for permission.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> * What's the point of UAC?
> >> >>
> >> >> UAC is designed to put control of your computer back into your hands,
> >> >> instead of at the mercy of the programs running on your computer.
> >> >>
> >> >> When logged in as an administrator in Windows XP, any program that
> >> >> could
> >> >> somehow get itself started could take control of the entire computer
> >> >> without
> >> >> you even knowing about it.
> >> >>
> >> >> With UAC turned on, you must know about and authorize a program in
> >> >> order for
> >> >> it to gain admin access to the system, REGARDLESS of how the program
> >> >> got
> >> >> there or how it is started.
> >> >>
> >> >> This is important to all levels of users - from home users to
> >> >> enterprise
> >> >> administrators. Being alerted when any program tries to use admin
> >> >> powers and
> >> >> being able to unilaterally disallow a program from having such power
> >> >> is a
> >> >> VERY powerful ability. No longer is the security of the system
> >> >> tantamount to
> >> >> "crossing one's fingers and hoping for the best" - YOU now control
> >> >> your
> >> >> system.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> * How do I effectively use my computer with UAC turned on?
> >> >>
> >> >> It's easy. Just keep in mind that programs don't have admin access to
> >> >> your
> >> >> computer unless you give them permission. Microsoft programs that come
> >> >> with
> >> >> Windows Vista that need admin access will always ask for admin
> >> >> permissions
> >> >> when you start them. However, most other programs will not.
> >> >>
> >> >> This will change after Windows Vista is released - all Windows
> >> >> Vista-era
> >> >> programs that need admin power will always ask you for it. Until then,
> >> >> you
> >> >> will need to run programs that need administrative powers that were
> >> >> not
> >> >> designed for Windows Vista "as administrator".
> >> >>
> >> >> Command-line programs do not automatically ask for permission. Not
> >> >> even the
> >> >> built-in ones. You will need to run the command prompt "as
> >> >> administrator" in
> >> >> order to run administrative command-line utilities.
> >> >>
> >> >> Working with files and folders from Windows Explorer can be a real
> >> >> pain when
> >> >> you are not working with your own files. When you are needing to work
> >> >> with
> >> >> system files, files that you didn't create, or files from another
> >> >> operating
> >> >> system, run Windows Explorer "as administrator". In the same vein, ANY
> >> >> program that you run that needs access to system files or files that
> >> >> you
> >> >> didn't create will need to be ran "as administrator".
> >> >>
> >> >> If you are going to be working with the control panel for a long time,
> >> >> running control.exe "as administrator" will make things less painful -
> >> >> you
> >> >> will only be asked for permission once, instead of every time you try
> >> >> to
> >> >> change a system-wide setting.
> >> >>
> >> >> In short:
> >> >>
> >> >> - Run command prompt as admin when you need to run admin utilities
> >> >> - Run setup programs as admin
> >> >> - Run programs not designed for Vista as admin if (and only if) they
> >> >> need
> >> >> admin access
> >> >> - Run Windows Explorer as admin when you need access to files that
> >> >> aren't
> >> >> yours or system files
> >> >> - Run programs that need access to files that aren't yours or system
> >> >> files
> >> >> as admin
> >> >> - Run control.exe as admin when changing many settings in the control
> >> >> panel
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> * UAC is annoying, I want to turn it off
> >> >>
> >> >> Having to go through an extra step (clicking Continue) when opening
> >> >> administrative programs is annoying. And it is also very frustrating
> >> >> to run
> >> >> a program that needs admin power but doesn't automatically ask you for
> >> >> it
> >> >> (you have to right-click these programs and click Run As Administrator
> >> >> for
> >> >> them to run correctly).
> >> >>
> >> >> But, keep in mind that these small inconveniences are insignificant
> >> >> when
> >> >> weighed against the benefit: NO PROGRAM can get full access to your
> >> >> system

Uninstall the Symantec Internet Security and Hitman Pro and see if your
problem goes away. I actually had to reinstall Vista to clear out my AV
related problems.

Mike.

"Ernst" <Ernst@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:9DE2698B-A8EC-4581-9744-AFBFC9C0E015@microsoft.com...
> Interesting point, Mike. Thank you. I am currently using a trial version
> of
> Symantec's Internet Security version 10.2.0.30 that was pre-installed as
> OEM
> software on my MSI PR 200 laptop. It shows a copyright registration of
> 2006.
> I have looked on the Symantec site, but I could not determine the Vista
> compatibility.
> I also use Hitman Pro which updates itself and it's underlying software on
> a
> regular basis.
> Ernst
>
>
> "Michael D. Ober" wrote:
>
>> Question - is the AV software you're using certified for Vista? The
>> reason
>> I asked is that I had similar problems until I upgraded my AV software
>> from
>> "compatible with" to a version that was "certified".
>>
>> Mike Ober.
>>
>>
>> "Ernst" <Ernst@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:7ABC1D88-874F-41A7-94FC-5A9B4084E284@microsoft.com...
>> > Charlie, Thank you for this extensive respons. Yes I understand what
>> > you
>> > are
>> > saying, but this was already clear to me from the earlier part of the
>> > thread.
>> > I also agree with the principal behind it. I have worked for many years
>> > with
>> > firewalls like ZoneAlarm and Comodo that use a similar principal: Ask
>> > the
>> > user what program is allowed access (the computer or the internet).
>> > However,
>> > these firewalls have never stopped me from doing the work that I need
>> > doing
>> > on my PC. UAC is. If this UAC is applied it should work properly, both
>> > in
>> > protection AND in giving access when given permission by me as
>> > administrator
>> > to do so. As I have described in my previous post, I cannot copy files
>> > within
>> > my user directory (from pictures to documents) even after starting
>> > Explorer
>> > up with administrator rights (right mouse button). Vista Home still
>> > tells
>> > me
>> > I do not have the correct authorisation. Never mind the fact that my
>> > owner
>> > directory is a mess after having stored (diverted) subdirectories on a
>> > different drive using the directions provided by Help. Basically this
>> > is a
>> > different problem, but they might be related. Ever since redirecting
>> > the
>> > pictures and the documents folders to the D-drive, the folder I had
>> > stored
>> > them in on the D-Drive has disappeared from view, including all the
>> > other
>> > files and subdirectories that it contained. I guess they are all still
>> > somewhere on the system, but I cannot see and thus cannot access them
>> > anymore. Other files and folders have switched directory. The example I
>> > gave
>> > was my bookkeeping folder. This folder used to be stored in
>> > 'Documents'.
>> > Since the divertion it is stored in the 'Pictures' directory. Go
>> > figure.
>> > Now, is the only way to reorganise my user directory to go 'root' and
>> > temporarily turn off UAC or is there another way to achieve this? To
>> > put
>> > it
>> > in another way: How can I make UAC do its job all the way? And HOW
>> > would I
>> > be
>> > able to temporarily turn UAC off by the time I loose my patience
>> > completely?
>> > And when I say temporarily, I mean temporarily, because I do agree with
>> > the
>> > basic idea of UAC.
>> > Thank you.
>> > Ernst
>> >
>> > "Charlie Tame" wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ernst, the UAC system is Microsoft's way of putting the horse back in
>> >> front of the cart.
>> >>
>> >> The convention with Unix / Linux has always been to have one admin -
>> >> "Root" and everyone else as users.
>> >>
>> >> Generally it's been the opposite with Windows.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately Vista does not "Explain" that as the "Owner" or
>> >> "Installer" of the system you are really only a privileged "User". The
>> >> impressions is that you are "Special" because in the past you always
>> >> were.
>> >>
>> >> With Linux it has been convention for years that running as "Root" is
>> >> a
>> >> bad thing, and the more sophisticated the software you are using
>> >> (Graphical User Interface for example) the more dangerous that would
>> >> be
>> >> because quite simply there's more chance of a bug letting bad things
>> >> happen.
>> >>
>> >> So to do anything with older Linux you would sign out as "Ernst" and
>> >> back in as "Root". Normally neither "Ernst" nor malware could do much
>> >> to
>> >> damage the system.
>> >>
>> >> Later versions allow "Ernst" to use the command "SUDO" (or similar) to
>> >> temporarily gain admin rights (Root) for one specific task or groups
>> >> of
>> >> tasks.
>> >>
>> >> With Windows the convention has been the wrong way around, and this is
>> >> a
>> >> kind of "Legacy" carried on by the users who expect to always have
>> >> total control at all times. Unfortunately this also gives a bad guy at
>> >> your desktop, a bad guy with a remote terminal or bad software the
>> >> same
>> >> control.
>> >>
>> >> So although I think UAC is a clumsy and sometimes annoying way of
>> >> trying
>> >> to persuade people to do it the right way, it is an advisory tool that
>> >> has some merit. It is NOT per-se increased security if you are silly
>> >> and
>> >> let things you are unaware of do what they ask, any more than the
>> >> Linux
>> >> method is "Security" if you become "Root" and let unknown software
>> >> take
>> >> actions it requests.
>> >>
>> >> In some circumstances signing in as "Root" might be acceptable, in
>> >> your
>> >> case it probably was, but with the amount of malware, spyware and
>> >> stuff
>> >> targeting Windows these days most users who were running as full admin
>> >> were in danger.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Ernst wrote:
>> >> > Exellent explanation Jimmy. Thank You. I now, after months of using
>> >> > Vista and
>> >> > hours of searching the net, understand the basic reasoning behind
>> >> > all
>> >> > my
>> >> > suffering. It makes a lot of sense and I will definitely make myself
>> >> > a
>> >> > seperate user account for daily use. Having said this I do not
>> >> > believe
>> >> > Microsoft is going to get the everage Joe to go through such a steep
>> >> > learning
>> >> > curve. Also, giving a program temporary administrator rights does
>> >> > not
>> >> > work
>> >> > with my very first attempt on Explorer. A numeber of files and
>> >> > folders
>> >> > have
>> >> > either been hidden, deleted or placed elsewhere by Vista when
>> >> > re-directing
>> >> > the documents and picture folders to another drive (following
>> >> > directions by
>> >> > MS Help). F.i. folders from my documents directory have ended up
>> >> > inside
>> >> > my
>> >> > pictures directory. When trying to reorganise with Explorer (with
>> >> > administrator rights) I still get pop ups telling me I am not
>> >> > authorised to
>> >> > perform these tasks. I know MS is trying to give me control, but it
>> >> > sure does
>> >> > not feel like it.
>> >> > My only option seems to be to temporarily switch off UAC to get
>> >> > reorganised.
>> >> > Any other suggestions? Ernst
>> >> >
>> >> > "Jimmy Brush" wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hello,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I've noticed that a lot of the questions in these newsgroups are
>> >> >> either
>> >> >> directly or indirectly related to UAC (User Account Control). In
>> >> >> this
>> >> >> post,
>> >> >> I will go over what UAC does, how it works, the reasoning behind
>> >> >> it,
>> >> >> how to
>> >> >> use your computer with UAC on, why you shouldn't turn UAC off, and
>> >> >> answer
>> >> >> some common questions and respond to common complaints about it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> * What is UAC and what does it do?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> UAC mode (also known as Admin Approval Mode) is a mode of operation
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> (primarily) affects the way administrator accounts work.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> When UAC is turned on (which it is by default), you must explicitly
>> >> >> give
>> >> >> permission to any program that wants to use "administrator" powers.
>> >> >> Any
>> >> >> program that tries to use admin powers without your permission will
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> denied access.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> * How does UAC work
>> >> >>
>> >> >> When UAC mode is enabled, every program that you run will be given
>> >> >> only
>> >> >> "standard user" access to the system, even when you are logged in
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> an
>> >> >> administrator. There are only 2 ways that a program can be
>> >> >> "elevated"
>> >> >> to get
>> >> >> full admin access to the system:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - If it automatically asks you for permission when it starts up,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> click Continue
>> >> >> - If you start the program with permission by right-clicking it,
>> >> >> then
>> >> >> clicking Run As Administrator
>> >> >>
>> >> >> A program either starts with STANDARD rights or, if you give
>> >> >> permission,
>> >> >> ADMINISTRATOR rights, and once the program is running it cannot
>> >> >> change
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> one to the other.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If a program that you have already started with admin powers starts
>> >> >> another
>> >> >> program, that program will automatically be given admin powers
>> >> >> without
>> >> >> needing your permission. For example, if you start Windows Explorer
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> administrator, and then double-click on a text file, notepad will
>> >> >> open
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> display the contents of the text file. Since notepad was opened
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> admin explorer window, notepad WILL ALSO automatically run WITH
>> >> >> admin
>> >> >> powers, and will not ask for permission.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> * What's the point of UAC?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> UAC is designed to put control of your computer back into your
>> >> >> hands,
>> >> >> instead of at the mercy of the programs running on your computer.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> When logged in as an administrator in Windows XP, any program that
>> >> >> could
>> >> >> somehow get itself started could take control of the entire
>> >> >> computer
>> >> >> without
>> >> >> you even knowing about it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> With UAC turned on, you must know about and authorize a program in
>> >> >> order for
>> >> >> it to gain admin access to the system, REGARDLESS of how the
>> >> >> program
>> >> >> got
>> >> >> there or how it is started.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This is important to all levels of users - from home users to
>> >> >> enterprise
>> >> >> administrators. Being alerted when any program tries to use admin
>> >> >> powers and
>> >> >> being able to unilaterally disallow a program from having such
>> >> >> power
>> >> >> is a
>> >> >> VERY powerful ability. No longer is the security of the system
>> >> >> tantamount to
>> >> >> "crossing one's fingers and hoping for the best" - YOU now control
>> >> >> your
>> >> >> system.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> * How do I effectively use my computer with UAC turned on?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It's easy. Just keep in mind that programs don't have admin access
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> your
>> >> >> computer unless you give them permission. Microsoft programs that
>> >> >> come
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> Windows Vista that need admin access will always ask for admin
>> >> >> permissions
>> >> >> when you start them. However, most other programs will not.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This will change after Windows Vista is released - all Windows
>> >> >> Vista-era
>> >> >> programs that need admin power will always ask you for it. Until
>> >> >> then,
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> will need to run programs that need administrative powers that were
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> designed for Windows Vista "as administrator".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Command-line programs do not automatically ask for permission. Not
>> >> >> even the
>> >> >> built-in ones. You will need to run the command prompt "as
>> >> >> administrator" in
>> >> >> order to run administrative command-line utilities.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Working with files and folders from Windows Explorer can be a real
>> >> >> pain when
>> >> >> you are not working with your own files. When you are needing to
>> >> >> work
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> system files, files that you didn't create, or files from another
>> >> >> operating
>> >> >> system, run Windows Explorer "as administrator". In the same vein,
>> >> >> ANY
>> >> >> program that you run that needs access to system files or files
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> didn't create will need to be ran "as administrator".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If you are going to be working with the control panel for a long
>> >> >> time,
>> >> >> running control.exe "as administrator" will make things less
>> >> >> painful -
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> will only be asked for permission once, instead of every time you
>> >> >> try
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> change a system-wide setting.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In short:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - Run command prompt as admin when you need to run admin utilities
>> >> >> - Run setup programs as admin
>> >> >> - Run programs not designed for Vista as admin if (and only if)
>> >> >> they
>> >> >> need
>> >> >> admin access
>> >> >> - Run Windows Explorer as admin when you need access to files that
>> >> >> aren't
>> >> >> yours or system files
>> >> >> - Run programs that need access to files that aren't yours or
>> >> >> system
>> >> >> files
>> >> >> as admin
>> >> >> - Run control.exe as admin when changing many settings in the
>> >> >> control
>> >> >> panel
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> * UAC is annoying, I want to turn it off
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Having to go through an extra step (clicking Continue) when opening
>> >> >> administrative programs is annoying. And it is also very
>> >> >> frustrating
>> >> >> to run
>> >> >> a program that needs admin power but doesn't automatically ask you
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> (you have to right-click these programs and click Run As
>> >> >> Administrator
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> them to run correctly).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But, keep in mind that these small inconveniences are insignificant
>> >> >> when
>> >> >> weighed against the benefit: NO PROGRAM can get full access to your
>> >> >> system
>

I'll try Kerry's suggestions and I will, as you suggest, uninstall these
anti-malware programs. I want to recover some files, so I will try these
actions first. As a last resort I may indeed have to reinstal Vista. Thank
you Michael. Ernst

"Michael D. Ober" wrote:

> Uninstall the Symantec Internet Security and Hitman Pro and see if your
> problem goes away. I actually had to reinstall Vista to clear out my AV
> related problems.
>
> Mike.
>
> "Ernst" <Ernst@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:9DE2698B-A8EC-4581-9744-AFBFC9C0E015@microsoft.com...
> > Interesting point, Mike. Thank you. I am currently using a trial version
> > of
> > Symantec's Internet Security version 10.2.0.30 that was pre-installed as
> > OEM
> > software on my MSI PR 200 laptop. It shows a copyright registration of
> > 2006.
> > I have looked on the Symantec site, but I could not determine the Vista
> > compatibility.
> > I also use Hitman Pro which updates itself and it's underlying software on
> > a
> > regular basis.
> > Ernst
> >
> >
> > "Michael D. Ober" wrote:
> >
> >> Question - is the AV software you're using certified for Vista? The
> >> reason
> >> I asked is that I had similar problems until I upgraded my AV software
> >> from
> >> "compatible with" to a version that was "certified".
> >>
> >> Mike Ober.
> >>
> >>
> >> "Ernst" <Ernst@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> news:7ABC1D88-874F-41A7-94FC-5A9B4084E284@microsoft.com...
> >> > Charlie, Thank you for this extensive respons. Yes I understand what
> >> > you
> >> > are
> >> > saying, but this was already clear to me from the earlier part of the
> >> > thread.
> >> > I also agree with the principal behind it. I have worked for many years
> >> > with
> >> > firewalls like ZoneAlarm and Comodo that use a similar principal: Ask
> >> > the
> >> > user what program is allowed access (the computer or the internet).
> >> > However,
> >> > these firewalls have never stopped me from doing the work that I need
> >> > doing
> >> > on my PC. UAC is. If this UAC is applied it should work properly, both
> >> > in
> >> > protection AND in giving access when given permission by me as
> >> > administrator
> >> > to do so. As I have described in my previous post, I cannot copy files
> >> > within
> >> > my user directory (from pictures to documents) even after starting
> >> > Explorer
> >> > up with administrator rights (right mouse button). Vista Home still
> >> > tells
> >> > me
> >> > I do not have the correct authorisation. Never mind the fact that my
> >> > owner
> >> > directory is a mess after having stored (diverted) subdirectories on a
> >> > different drive using the directions provided by Help. Basically this
> >> > is a
> >> > different problem, but they might be related. Ever since redirecting
> >> > the
> >> > pictures and the documents folders to the D-drive, the folder I had
> >> > stored
> >> > them in on the D-Drive has disappeared from view, including all the
> >> > other
> >> > files and subdirectories that it contained. I guess they are all still
> >> > somewhere on the system, but I cannot see and thus cannot access them
> >> > anymore. Other files and folders have switched directory. The example I
> >> > gave
> >> > was my bookkeeping folder. This folder used to be stored in
> >> > 'Documents'.
> >> > Since the divertion it is stored in the 'Pictures' directory. Go
> >> > figure.
> >> > Now, is the only way to reorganise my user directory to go 'root' and
> >> > temporarily turn off UAC or is there another way to achieve this? To
> >> > put
> >> > it
> >> > in another way: How can I make UAC do its job all the way? And HOW
> >> > would I
> >> > be
> >> > able to temporarily turn UAC off by the time I loose my patience
> >> > completely?
> >> > And when I say temporarily, I mean temporarily, because I do agree with
> >> > the
> >> > basic idea of UAC.
> >> > Thank you.
> >> > Ernst
> >> >
> >> > "Charlie Tame" wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Ernst, the UAC system is Microsoft's way of putting the horse back in
> >> >> front of the cart.
> >> >>
> >> >> The convention with Unix / Linux has always been to have one admin -
> >> >> "Root" and everyone else as users.
> >> >>
> >> >> Generally it's been the opposite with Windows.
> >> >>
> >> >> Unfortunately Vista does not "Explain" that as the "Owner" or
> >> >> "Installer" of the system you are really only a privileged "User". The
> >> >> impressions is that you are "Special" because in the past you always
> >> >> were.
> >> >>
> >> >> With Linux it has been convention for years that running as "Root" is
> >> >> a
> >> >> bad thing, and the more sophisticated the software you are using
> >> >> (Graphical User Interface for example) the more dangerous that would
> >> >> be
> >> >> because quite simply there's more chance of a bug letting bad things
> >> >> happen.
> >> >>
> >> >> So to do anything with older Linux you would sign out as "Ernst" and
> >> >> back in as "Root". Normally neither "Ernst" nor malware could do much
> >> >> to
> >> >> damage the system.
> >> >>
> >> >> Later versions allow "Ernst" to use the command "SUDO" (or similar) to
> >> >> temporarily gain admin rights (Root) for one specific task or groups
> >> >> of
> >> >> tasks.
> >> >>
> >> >> With Windows the convention has been the wrong way around, and this is
> >> >> a
> >> >> kind of "Legacy" carried on by the users who expect to always have
> >> >> total control at all times. Unfortunately this also gives a bad guy at
> >> >> your desktop, a bad guy with a remote terminal or bad software the
> >> >> same
> >> >> control.
> >> >>
> >> >> So although I think UAC is a clumsy and sometimes annoying way of
> >> >> trying
> >> >> to persuade people to do it the right way, it is an advisory tool that
> >> >> has some merit. It is NOT per-se increased security if you are silly
> >> >> and
> >> >> let things you are unaware of do what they ask, any more than the
> >> >> Linux
> >> >> method is "Security" if you become "Root" and let unknown software
> >> >> take
> >> >> actions it requests.
> >> >>
> >> >> In some circumstances signing in as "Root" might be acceptable, in
> >> >> your
> >> >> case it probably was, but with the amount of malware, spyware and
> >> >> stuff
> >> >> targeting Windows these days most users who were running as full admin
> >> >> were in danger.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Ernst wrote:
> >> >> > Exellent explanation Jimmy. Thank You. I now, after months of using
> >> >> > Vista and
> >> >> > hours of searching the net, understand the basic reasoning behind
> >> >> > all
> >> >> > my
> >> >> > suffering. It makes a lot of sense and I will definitely make myself
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > seperate user account for daily use. Having said this I do not
> >> >> > believe
> >> >> > Microsoft is going to get the everage Joe to go through such a steep
> >> >> > learning
> >> >> > curve. Also, giving a program temporary administrator rights does
> >> >> > not
> >> >> > work
> >> >> > with my very first attempt on Explorer. A numeber of files and
> >> >> > folders
> >> >> > have
> >> >> > either been hidden, deleted or placed elsewhere by Vista when
> >> >> > re-directing
> >> >> > the documents and picture folders to another drive (following
> >> >> > directions by
> >> >> > MS Help). F.i. folders from my documents directory have ended up
> >> >> > inside
> >> >> > my
> >> >> > pictures directory. When trying to reorganise with Explorer (with
> >> >> > administrator rights) I still get pop ups telling me I am not
> >> >> > authorised to
> >> >> > perform these tasks. I know MS is trying to give me control, but it
> >> >> > sure does
> >> >> > not feel like it.
> >> >> > My only option seems to be to temporarily switch off UAC to get
> >> >> > reorganised.
> >> >> > Any other suggestions? Ernst
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Jimmy Brush" wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Hello,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I've noticed that a lot of the questions in these newsgroups are
> >> >> >> either
> >> >> >> directly or indirectly related to UAC (User Account Control). In
> >> >> >> this
> >> >> >> post,
> >> >> >> I will go over what UAC does, how it works, the reasoning behind
> >> >> >> it,
> >> >> >> how to
> >> >> >> use your computer with UAC on, why you shouldn't turn UAC off, and
> >> >> >> answer
> >> >> >> some common questions and respond to common complaints about it.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> * What is UAC and what does it do?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> UAC mode (also known as Admin Approval Mode) is a mode of operation
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> (primarily) affects the way administrator accounts work.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> When UAC is turned on (which it is by default), you must explicitly
> >> >> >> give
> >> >> >> permission to any program that wants to use "administrator" powers.
> >> >> >> Any
> >> >> >> program that tries to use admin powers without your permission will
> >> >> >> be
> >> >> >> denied access.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> * How does UAC work
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> When UAC mode is enabled, every program that you run will be given
> >> >> >> only
> >> >> >> "standard user" access to the system, even when you are logged in
> >> >> >> as
> >> >> >> an
> >> >> >> administrator. There are only 2 ways that a program can be
> >> >> >> "elevated"
> >> >> >> to get
> >> >> >> full admin access to the system:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - If it automatically asks you for permission when it starts up,
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> you
> >> >> >> click Continue
> >> >> >> - If you start the program with permission by right-clicking it,
> >> >> >> then
> >> >> >> clicking Run As Administrator
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> A program either starts with STANDARD rights or, if you give
> >> >> >> permission,
> >> >> >> ADMINISTRATOR rights, and once the program is running it cannot
> >> >> >> change
> >> >> >> from
> >> >> >> one to the other.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If a program that you have already started with admin powers starts
> >> >> >> another
> >> >> >> program, that program will automatically be given admin powers
> >> >> >> without
> >> >> >> needing your permission. For example, if you start Windows Explorer
> >> >> >> as
> >> >> >> administrator, and then double-click on a text file, notepad will
> >> >> >> open
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> display the contents of the text file. Since notepad was opened
> >> >> >> from
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> admin explorer window, notepad WILL ALSO automatically run WITH
> >> >> >> admin
> >> >> >> powers, and will not ask for permission.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> * What's the point of UAC?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> UAC is designed to put control of your computer back into your
> >> >> >> hands,
> >> >> >> instead of at the mercy of the programs running on your computer.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> When logged in as an administrator in Windows XP, any program that
> >> >> >> could
> >> >> >> somehow get itself started could take control of the entire
> >> >> >> computer
> >> >> >> without
> >> >> >> you even knowing about it.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> With UAC turned on, you must know about and authorize a program in
> >> >> >> order for
> >> >> >> it to gain admin access to the system, REGARDLESS of how the
> >> >> >> program
> >> >> >> got
> >> >> >> there or how it is started.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> This is important to all levels of users - from home users to
> >> >> >> enterprise
> >> >> >> administrators. Being alerted when any program tries to use admin
> >> >> >> powers and
> >> >> >> being able to unilaterally disallow a program from having such
> >> >> >> power
> >> >> >> is a
> >> >> >> VERY powerful ability. No longer is the security of the system
> >> >> >> tantamount to
> >> >> >> "crossing one's fingers and hoping for the best" - YOU now control
> >> >> >> your
> >> >> >> system.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>