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RE: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permission scre

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2007
dave
 

Posts: n/a
RE: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permission scre


"Jimmy Brush" wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I've noticed that a lot of the questions in these newsgroups are either
> directly or indirectly related to UAC (User Account Control). In this post,
> I will go over what UAC does, how it works, the reasoning behind it, how to
> use your computer with UAC on, why you shouldn't turn UAC off, and answer
> some common questions and respond to common complaints about it.
>
>
> * What is UAC and what does it do?
>
> UAC mode (also known as Admin Approval Mode) is a mode of operation that
> (primarily) affects the way administrator accounts work.
>
> When UAC is turned on (which it is by default), you must explicitly give
> permission to any program that wants to use "administrator" powers. Any
> program that tries to use admin powers without your permission will be
> denied access.
>
>
> * How does UAC work
>
> When UAC mode is enabled, every program that you run will be given only
> "standard user" access to the system, even when you are logged in as an
> administrator. There are only 2 ways that a program can be "elevated" to get
> full admin access to the system:
>
> - If it automatically asks you for permission when it starts up, and you
> click Continue
> - If you start the program with permission by right-clicking it, then
> clicking Run As Administrator
>
> A program either starts with STANDARD rights or, if you give permission,
> ADMINISTRATOR rights, and once the program is running it cannot change from
> one to the other.
>
> If a program that you have already started with admin powers starts another
> program, that program will automatically be given admin powers without
> needing your permission. For example, if you start Windows Explorer as
> administrator, and then double-click on a text file, notepad will open and
> display the contents of the text file. Since notepad was opened from the
> admin explorer window, notepad WILL ALSO automatically run WITH admin
> powers, and will not ask for permission.
>
>
> * What's the point of UAC?
>
> UAC is designed to put control of your computer back into your hands,
> instead of at the mercy of the programs running on your computer.
>
> When logged in as an administrator in Windows XP, any program that could
> somehow get itself started could take control of the entire computer without
> you even knowing about it.
>
> With UAC turned on, you must know about and authorize a program in order for
> it to gain admin access to the system, REGARDLESS of how the program got
> there or how it is started.
>
> This is important to all levels of users - from home users to enterprise
> administrators. Being alerted when any program tries to use admin powers and
> being able to unilaterally disallow a program from having such power is a
> VERY powerful ability. No longer is the security of the system tantamount to
> "crossing one's fingers and hoping for the best" - YOU now control your
> system.
>
>
> * How do I effectively use my computer with UAC turned on?
>
> It's easy. Just keep in mind that programs don't have admin access to your
> computer unless you give them permission. Microsoft programs that come with
> Windows Vista that need admin access will always ask for admin permissions
> when you start them. However, most other programs will not.
>
> This will change after Windows Vista is released - all Windows Vista-era
> programs that need admin power will always ask you for it. Until then, you
> will need to run programs that need administrative powers that were not
> designed for Windows Vista "as administrator".
>
> Command-line programs do not automatically ask for permission. Not even the
> built-in ones. You will need to run the command prompt "as administrator" in
> order to run administrative command-line utilities.
>
> Working with files and folders from Windows Explorer can be a real pain when
> you are not working with your own files. When you are needing to work with
> system files, files that you didn't create, or files from another operating
> system, run Windows Explorer "as administrator". In the same vein, ANY
> program that you run that needs access to system files or files that you
> didn't create will need to be ran "as administrator".
>
> If you are going to be working with the control panel for a long time,
> running control.exe "as administrator" will make things less painful - you
> will only be asked for permission once, instead of every time you try to
> change a system-wide setting.
>
> In short:
>
> - Run command prompt as admin when you need to run admin utilities
> - Run setup programs as admin
> - Run programs not designed for Vista as admin if (and only if) they need
> admin access
> - Run Windows Explorer as admin when you need access to files that aren't
> yours or system files
> - Run programs that need access to files that aren't yours or system files
> as admin
> - Run control.exe as admin when changing many settings in the control panel
>
>
> * UAC is annoying, I want to turn it off
>
> Having to go through an extra step (clicking Continue) when opening
> administrative programs is annoying. And it is also very frustrating to run
> a program that needs admin power but doesn't automatically ask you for it
> (you have to right-click these programs and click Run As Administrator for
> them to run correctly).
>
> But, keep in mind that these small inconveniences are insignificant when
> weighed against the benefit: NO PROGRAM can get full access to your system
> without you being informed. The first time the permission dialog pops up and
> it is from some program that you know nothing about or that you do not want
> to have access to your system, you will be very glad that the Cancel button
> was available to you.
>
>
> * Answers to common questions and responses to common criticism
>
> Q: I have anti-virus, a firewall, a spyware-detector, or something similar.
> Why do I need UAC?
>
> A: Detectors can only see known threats. And of all the known threats in
> existence, they only detect the most common of those threats. With UAC
> turned on, *you* control what programs have access to your computer - you
> can stop ALL threats. Detectors are nice, but they're not enough. How many
> people do you know that have detectors of all kinds and yet are still
> infested with programs that they don't want on their computer? Everyone that
> I have ever helped falls into this category.
>
>
> Q: Does UAC replace anti-virus, a firewall, a spyware-detector, or similar
> programs?
>
> A: No. Microsoft recommends that you use a virus scanner and/or other types
> of security software. These types of programs compliment UAC: They will get
> rid of known threats for you. UAC will allow you to stop unknown threats, as
> well as prevent any program that you do not trust from gaining access to
> your computer.
>
>
> Q: I am a system administrator - I have no use for UAC.
>
> A: Really? You don't NEED to know when a program on your computer runs with
> admin powers? You are a system administrator and you really could care less
> when a program runs that has full control of your system, and possibly your
> entire domain? You're joking, right?
>
>
> Q: UAC keeps me from accessing files and folders
>
> A: No, it doesn't - UAC protects you from programs that would try to delete
> or modify system files and folders without your knowledge. If you want a
> program to have full access to the files on your computer, you will need to
> run it as admin. Or as an alternative, if possible, put the files it needs
> access to in a place that all programs have access to - such as your
> documents folder, or any folder under your user folder.
>
>
> Q: UAC stops programs from working correctly
>
> A: If a program needs admin power and it doesn't ask you for permission when
> it starts, you have to give it admin powers by right-clicking it and
> clicking Run As Administrator. Programs should work like they did in XP when
> you use Run As Administrator. If they don't, then this is a bug.
>
>
> Q: UAC keeps me from doing things that I could do in XP
>
> A: This is not the case. Just remember that programs that do not ask for
> permission when they start do not get admin access to your computer. If you
> are using a tool that needs admin access, right-click it and click Run As
> Administrator. It should work exactly as it did in XP. If it does not, then
> this is a bug.
>
>
> Q: UAC is Microsoft's way of controlling my computer and preventing me from
> using it!
>
> A: This is 100% UNTRUE. UAC puts control of your computer IN YOUR HANDS by
> allowing you to prevent unwanted programs from accessing your computer.
> *Everything* that you can do with UAC turned off, you can do with it turned
> on. If this is not the case, then that is a bug.
>
>
> Q: I don't need Windows to hold my freaking hand! I *know* what I've got on
> my computer, and I *know* when programs run! I am logged on as an
> ADMINISTRATOR for a dang reason!
>
> A: I accept the way that you think, and can see the logic, but I don't agree
> with this idea. UAC is putting POWER in your hands by letting you CONTROL
> what runs on your system. But you want to give up this control and allow all
> programs to run willy-nilly. Look, if you want to do this go right ahead,
> you can turn UAC off and things will return to how they worked in XP. But,
> don't be surprised when either 1) You run something by mistake that messes
> up your computer and/or domain, or 2) A program somehow gets on your
> computer that you know nothing about that takes over your computer and/or
> domain, and UAC would have allowed you to have stopped it.
>
>
> - JB
>
> Vista Support FAQ
> http://www.jimmah.com/vista/
>


gee wizz thats so great unlike most i have been computing since i was 16
using dos i am 38 now and hate vista uac i am not 3 years old and i dont need
the uac reminding me every time i start a program for permission.unfortanatly
it came pre install on my new computer i will be going back to xp formating
vista off my computer forever win 95 was better than vista.I only hope that
everyone else follows suite with reinstalling xp in stead of setteling for
win vista
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2007
Gunrunnerjohn
 

Posts: n/a
Re: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permission scre
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 02:38:03 -0700, dave <dave@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>gee wizz thats so great unlike most i have been computing since i was 16
>using dos i am 38 now and hate vista uac i am not 3 years old and i dont need
>the uac reminding me every time i start a program for permission.unfortanatly
>it came pre install on my new computer i will be going back to xp formating
>vista off my computer forever win 95 was better than vista.I only hope that
>everyone else follows suite with reinstalling xp in stead of setteling for
>win vista


If it bugs you that much, just disable it.

John Will
Microsoft MVP - Networking
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2007
 

Posts: n/a
Re: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permission scre
"dave" <dave@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:48C52BBD-7EE9-40F5-A5CE-5E87C947AF45@microsoft.com...
> gee wizz thats so great unlike most i have been computing since i was 16
> using dos i am 38 now and hate vista uac i am not 3 years old and i dont
> need
> the uac reminding me every time i start a program for
> permission.unfortanatly
> it came pre install on my new computer i will be going back to xp
> formating
> vista off my computer forever win 95 was better than vista.I only hope
> that
> everyone else follows suite with reinstalling xp in stead of setteling for
> win vista



Since UAC prompts only when elevation is required for administrative
privileges, how often are you seeing UAC?

If it's "every time I start a program", then I'd suggest that the programs
you start are either:
* badly written, and need to be replaced with updates that don't require
administrative rights
OR
* administrative tools that, in a well-managed environment, should be run
from a separate admin account from the one you use for day-to-day browsing
and email, with automatic elevation enabled (note that this is not the same
as disabling UAC!)

Really, if you're getting UAC prompts all the time, it's a sign you're using
programs that are relying on "everyone's an administrator" - that's so last
century. Think about that - for over a decade, Microsoft's best practices
have asked programmers to write for Win32, as opposed to Win16, and as a
result of that, to expect that their programs are not running under an
administrator account unless the programs require administrator rights. So
your software, if it's regular productivity software or games, is already
out of date by over ten years.

Add to this that Microsoft hasn't produced a version of Windows in which
everyone _is_ an administrator since Windows ME. So your software was
written for an operating system that's now over seven years old.

Why are you still using such old software?

Alun.
~~~~
--
Texas Imperial Software | Web: http://www.wftpd.com/
23921 57th Ave SE | Blog: http://msmvps.com/alunj/
Woodinville WA 98072-8661 | WFTPD, WFTPD Pro are Windows FTP servers.
Fax/Voice +1(425)807-1787 | Try our client software, WFTPD Explorer.

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2007
 

Posts: n/a
Re: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permission scre
"Gunrunnerjohn" <nobody@world.com> wrote in message
news:dqc9a39096ocqckjpd97mg804tcjgs1csl@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 02:38:03 -0700, dave <dave@discussions.microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>>gee wizz thats so great unlike most i have been computing since i was 16
>>using dos i am 38 now and hate vista uac i am not 3 years old and i dont
>>need
>>the uac reminding me every time i start a program for
>>permission.unfortanatly
>>it came pre install on my new computer i will be going back to xp
>>formating
>>vista off my computer forever win 95 was better than vista.I only hope
>>that
>>everyone else follows suite with reinstalling xp in stead of setteling for
>>win vista

>
> If it bugs you that much, just disable it.



Better still, understand it and use it wisely.

With UAC turned off, you lose integrity protection and Internet Explorer's
protected mode.

Better to leave UAC on, but assign yourself a restricted account and an
administrator account; do all your work except for the administration of
your system from the restricted account, and enable automatic elevation on
the administrator account.

Alun.
~~~~
--
Texas Imperial Software | Web: http://www.wftpd.com/
23921 57th Ave SE | Blog: http://msmvps.com/alunj/
Woodinville WA 98072-8661 | WFTPD, WFTPD Pro are Windows FTP servers.
Fax/Voice +1(425)807-1787 | Try our client software, WFTPD Explorer.

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2007
Adam Albright
 

Posts: n/a
Re: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permission scre
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 07:20:19 -0700, <alun@texis.invalid> wrote:


>Add to this that Microsoft hasn't produced a version of Windows in which
>everyone _is_ an administrator since Windows ME. So your software was
>written for an operating system that's now over seven years old.
>
>Why are you still using such old software?


WTF are you talking about? Right out of the box XP ASSUMED whoever
installs it has FULL administrative rights. If there is only one user,
then he is automatically the administrator unless and until he sets up
other accounts. Further the mindset to write programs this way has
roots at guess where...non other than Microsoft's Redmond campus,
that's where.

Need proof? Get it from the horse's mouth:

http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=288259

The main problem with UAC is it is a clueless nag that doesn't learn.
Case in point take one of my applications, that's not seven years old,
but just a few years old, copyrighted in 2004 written by a MAJOR
software house.

With UAC turned on it is crippled and has it's DVD burning ability
blocked. So I elevate the application giving it Administrative rights.
Does that get rid of the nag screens? No.

When I click on the shortcut to start the application useless nag UAC
first dims my screen then stops me from doing anything showing a
message reading "an unidentified program wants to access the
computer".

To proceed I need to click allow. I need to do that every damn time I
want to use the application.

Now for the numbnut fanboy crowd what's wrong with this picture?

For starters the application isn't unknown. I clicked run as
administrator, which you need to have permission to do, so you would
think UAC would have the smarts to remember that an ADMINISTRATOR has
given his blessing to run this application, but it doesn't remember
thus it becomes nothing but an annoying nag.

Can this be fixed?

Well lets see. I checked run as administrator, still get nag screen.
I made sure the shortcut's security tab for this application has me as
owner checked with full permissions. Still get nag screen. I went to
program files and made sure the .exe file has me as owner will full
permissions. Still get nag screen. Ditto for going to the folder the
program is in and doing the same thing. Still get a damn nag screen
every damn time I run this application.

Understand yet why people HATE UAC?

No? Well let me tell you why: IT DOESN'T WORK!

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2007
thetruthhurts @homail.com
 

Posts: n/a
Re: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permission scre
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:16:27 -0500, Adam Albright <AA@ABC.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 07:20:19 -0700, <alun@texis.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>Add to this that Microsoft hasn't produced a version of Windows in which
>>everyone _is_ an administrator since Windows ME. So your software was
>>written for an operating system that's now over seven years old.
>>
>>Why are you still using such old software?

>
>WTF are you talking about? Right out of the box XP ASSUMED whoever
>installs it has FULL administrative rights. If there is only one user,
>then he is automatically the administrator unless and until he sets up
>other accounts. Further the mindset to write programs this way has
>roots at guess where...non other than Microsoft's Redmond campus,
>that's where.
>
>Need proof? Get it from the horse's mouth:
>
>http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=288259
>
>The main problem with UAC is it is a clueless nag that doesn't learn.
>Case in point take one of my applications, that's not seven years old,
>but just a few years old, copyrighted in 2004 written by a MAJOR
>software house.
>
>With UAC turned on it is crippled and has it's DVD burning ability
>blocked. So I elevate the application giving it Administrative rights.
>Does that get rid of the nag screens? No.
>
>When I click on the shortcut to start the application useless nag UAC
>first dims my screen then stops me from doing anything showing a
>message reading "an unidentified program wants to access the
>computer".
>
>To proceed I need to click allow. I need to do that every damn time I
>want to use the application.
>
>Now for the numbnut fanboy crowd what's wrong with this picture?
>
>For starters the application isn't unknown. I clicked run as
>administrator, which you need to have permission to do, so you would
>think UAC would have the smarts to remember that an ADMINISTRATOR has
>given his blessing to run this application, but it doesn't remember
>thus it becomes nothing but an annoying nag.
>
>Can this be fixed?
>
>Well lets see. I checked run as administrator, still get nag screen.
>I made sure the shortcut's security tab for this application has me as
>owner checked with full permissions. Still get nag screen. I went to
>program files and made sure the .exe file has me as owner will full
>permissions. Still get nag screen. Ditto for going to the folder the
>program is in and doing the same thing. Still get a damn nag screen
>every damn time I run this application.
>
>Understand yet why people HATE UAC?
>
>No? Well let me tell you why: IT DOESN'T WORK!


I agree that UAC is a piece of crap. Have you tried unhidding and
using super admin to get your app to work?
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2007
Robert Koechl
 

Posts: n/a
Re: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permissionscre

> The main problem with UAC is it is a clueless nag that doesn't learn.
> Case in point take one of my applications, that's not seven years old,
> but just a few years old, copyrighted in 2004 written by a MAJOR
> software house.
>


Adam, there is something seriously, seriously wrong with your
application if it requires admin rights. Programs which require admin
rights are an absolute disaster from a security standpoint. Obviously I
am assuming now that the software you are talking about isn't any
"systems software" (so to speak). Coming from a UNIX background it is
unthinkable for me to run any software, designed for endusers, with root
permissions.
Robert
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2007
Adam Albright
 

Posts: n/a
Re: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permission scre
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:09:51 +0100, Robert Koechl
<year.2001@xx__rexymove__xxyz.web.de> wrote:

>
>> The main problem with UAC is it is a clueless nag that doesn't learn.
>> Case in point take one of my applications, that's not seven years old,
>> but just a few years old, copyrighted in 2004 written by a MAJOR
>> software house.
>>

>
>Adam, there is something seriously, seriously wrong with your
>application if it requires admin rights. Programs which require admin
>rights are an absolute disaster from a security standpoint. Obviously I
>am assuming now that the software you are talking about isn't any
>"systems software" (so to speak). Coming from a UNIX background it is
>unthinkable for me to run any software, designed for endusers, with root
> permissions.
>Robert


That could very well be, however it worked fine under XP, I've used it
for years and otherwise works flawlessly so I hate to give it up. It
is interesting in that this application works fine with administrative
rights disabled EXCEPT for one key function, the actual burning of a
DVD. That's when Vista starts to nag if Administrative rights aren't
enabled.

Just off the top of my head it seems Vista considers an application
wanting access to a DVD burner as a security risk. That's the sole
function that generates a nag screen from UAC with this application.
As far as all the actual DVD authoring steps including the actual
writing of the VOB files UAC doesn't give a peep when this application
does any of that.

My main beef with UAC to make a crude analogy would be like Vista
demanding you go through the activation and registration process EVERY
TIME you boot the computer. Obviously that would get old fast. UAC
should be smart enough to REMEMBER via a rules list or something
similar what you told it to do the last time. It does not, which is
what makes it such a nag and why many turn if off.

I already got a mother-in-law to nag me to death, I don't need some
electronic version.

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2007
John
 

Posts: n/a
Re: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permission scre
The biggest PITA about UAC is where you have to go to really understand all
of its tentacles. Start gpedit.msc then navigate to Local Comp police,
Windows settings, Security settings, local policies security options. At the
bottom are the UAC options.

Why did MS put something that they should have forseen as causing problems
(UAC) in such a remote place? My biggest complaint about Vista is how
difficult it is to find where to go to accomplish something.
"


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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2007
Robert Koechl
 

Posts: n/a
Re: ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permissionscre
Adam Albright wrote:

> That could very well be, however it worked fine under XP, I've used it
> for years and otherwise works flawlessly so I hate to give it up. It
> is interesting in that this application works fine with administrative
> rights disabled EXCEPT for one key function, the actual burning of a
> DVD. That's when Vista starts to nag if Administrative rights aren't
> enabled.


Hi Adam, I totally agree with you, you should not need admin rights to
burn CDs (although I understand that under specific circumstances you
might want to prevent that users can burn security sensitive documents
and remove them from company premises)

You could try the following to get your app to work:
1) Click on the start button and type gpedit.msc into the search field
2) Right click and run as administrator
3) Go to Computer Configuration, Administrative Templates, System,
Removable Storage Access
4) Click on "CD and DVD: Deny write access" Set it to disabled, this way
write access should be granted
5) Go to User Configuration, Administrative Templates, System, Removable
Storage Access and set "CD and DVD: Deny write access" again to disabled

You might have to restart your computer. Not sure if this will work.
Also, it might be sufficient to change those settings only under "User
Configuration". Let me know if this works!
You might want to make a backup
Regards
Robert



> I already got a mother-in-law to nag me to death, I don't need some
> electronic version.


:-)
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