IE 8 disaster

I just uninstalled IE 8 (I was using IE 7), after hours of crashes, freezes
(esp. with the tabs), various annoyances -- you name it, I endured it. I
installed it after reading several favorable reviews, but I am sure the
reviewers were not using the product, a common phenomenon.

How is it possible that such a huge company with thousands of skilled
programmers could produce such a horrible defective product is beyond me! I
guess it is a sign of the times, and we will have to get used to it.

Bonjour/soir, le Sat, 21 Mar 2009 03:39:01 -0700, *Rebecca* a caressé son
clavier pour nous dire dans le message suivant:

> How is it possible that such a huge company with thousands of skilled
> programmers could produce such a horrible defective product is beyond
> me! I guess it is a sign of the times, and we will have to get used to
> it.

"skilled" is perhaps the right word.

--
Utiliser le butineur, le courrielleur, le lecteur de nouvelles
et l'OS avec lesquels vous vous sentez le plus sécurisé ...
Posted via www.individual.net
http://mdoucet.wordpress.com/

How is it that millions of users have installed IE8 Beta builds and IE8
Final and have not seen the behavior you describe?

Rebecca wrote:
> I just uninstalled IE 8 (I was using IE 7), after hours of crashes,
> freezes
> (esp. with the tabs), various annoyances -- you name it, I endured it. I
> installed it after reading several favorable reviews, but I am sure the
> reviewers were not using the product, a common phenomenon.
>
> How is it possible that such a huge company with thousands of skilled
> programmers could produce such a horrible defective product is beyond me!
> I
> guess it is a sign of the times, and we will have to get used to it.

PA Bear,

You demonstrate very nicely the point that Rebecca makes. Millions don't and
millions do see the problems. Together that means there are millions of
problems.

As an MS MVP you should know how to easily write a program that will install
on millions of machines and not cause problems on some but cause them on
others. That's an easy problem that even beginning programmers can solve.

As a retired Professor of Computer Science and current Software Engineer, I
lament the lack of proficiency and determinism in current software
development.

Rebecca, software development has devolved to a point where marketing issues
drive release dates, and developers rarely have time to work all the bugs out
or even write defensive stable code. So we have rampant interaction and
interference between programs in the industry, and it's now a huge Gordian
knot that may never be untangled.

Note that today's method of troubleshooting help usually begins with
"Try...". Your computer is so different from mine that what "fixes" a problem
here my very well not fix it there.

Hence we see the rise of attitudes that say "it works here so it must be
your fault", or "it works for millions of people, so it's your fault". Well,
it's not your fault. All you did was download software that promises to work
just fine on your system. You didn't write the software, nor did you see
warnings that there might be interactions, and you shouldn't have to do the
debugging.

There are postings on the internet by people who have removed all their
add-ons, run their system after disabling all their normal utilities and in
bare-bones mode, and still see big problems in IE8. It's not your fault, it's
not your computer's fault.

Mwewe

"PA Bear [MS MVP]" wrote:

> How is it that millions of users have installed IE8 Beta builds and IE8
> Final and have not seen the behavior you describe?
>
> Rebecca wrote:
> > I just uninstalled IE 8 (I was using IE 7), after hours of crashes,
> > freezes
> > (esp. with the tabs), various annoyances -- you name it, I endured it. I
> > installed it after reading several favorable reviews, but I am sure the
> > reviewers were not using the product, a common phenomenon.
> >
> > How is it possible that such a huge company with thousands of skilled
> > programmers could produce such a horrible defective product is beyond me!
> > I
> > guess it is a sign of the times, and we will have to get used to it.
>
>

On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 03:39:01 -0700, Rebecca wrote:

> I just uninstalled IE 8 (I was using IE 7), after hours of crashes, freezes
> (esp. with the tabs), various annoyances -- you name it, I endured it. I
> installed it after reading several favorable reviews, but I am sure the
> reviewers were not using the product, a common phenomenon.
>
> How is it possible that such a huge company with thousands of skilled
> programmers could produce such a horrible defective product is beyond me! I
> guess it is a sign of the times, and we will have to get used to it.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/dd441788.aspx

Mwewe

"As a retired Professor of Computer Science and current Software Engineer,"

As per the above I find it surprisingly irresponsible what you are saying in your
post. You of all people should know better. Very poor judgment if I also might add.

As they say "You never know who you meet"

--
Peter

Please Reply to Newsgroup for the benefit of others
Requests for assistance by email can not and will not be acknowledged.

"Mwewe" <Mwewe@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:76E76A06-7916-4363-9B58-3B955B0D92DD@microsoft.com...
> PA Bear,
>
> You demonstrate very nicely the point that Rebecca makes. Millions don't and
> millions do see the problems. Together that means there are millions of
> problems.
>
> As an MS MVP you should know how to easily write a program that will install
> on millions of machines and not cause problems on some but cause them on
> others. That's an easy problem that even beginning programmers can solve.
>
> As a retired Professor of Computer Science and current Software Engineer, I
> lament the lack of proficiency and determinism in current software
> development.
>
> Rebecca, software development has devolved to a point where marketing issues
> drive release dates, and developers rarely have time to work all the bugs out
> or even write defensive stable code. So we have rampant interaction and
> interference between programs in the industry, and it's now a huge Gordian
> knot that may never be untangled.
>
> Note that today's method of troubleshooting help usually begins with
> "Try...". Your computer is so different from mine that what "fixes" a problem
> here my very well not fix it there.
>
> Hence we see the rise of attitudes that say "it works here so it must be
> your fault", or "it works for millions of people, so it's your fault". Well,
> it's not your fault. All you did was download software that promises to work
> just fine on your system. You didn't write the software, nor did you see
> warnings that there might be interactions, and you shouldn't have to do the
> debugging.
>
> There are postings on the internet by people who have removed all their
> add-ons, run their system after disabling all their normal utilities and in
> bare-bones mode, and still see big problems in IE8. It's not your fault, it's
> not your computer's fault.
>
> Mwewe
>
> "PA Bear [MS MVP]" wrote:
>
>> How is it that millions of users have installed IE8 Beta builds and IE8
>> Final and have not seen the behavior you describe?
>>
>> Rebecca wrote:
>> > I just uninstalled IE 8 (I was using IE 7), after hours of crashes,
>> > freezes
>> > (esp. with the tabs), various annoyances -- you name it, I endured it. I
>> > installed it after reading several favorable reviews, but I am sure the
>> > reviewers were not using the product, a common phenomenon.
>> >
>> > How is it possible that such a huge company with thousands of skilled
>> > programmers could produce such a horrible defective product is beyond me!
>> > I
>> > guess it is a sign of the times, and we will have to get used to it.
>>
>>

What is the problem, Peter, don't you think I deserve the same freedom of
speech everyone else enjoys on this board?

Certainly my 35+ years of experience in the field carries some weight, but I
can be as wrong about things as the next fellow, and I hope I AM wrong in my
pessimism about the current and future general state of software development.

I sincerely hope MSFT proves me way off base and releases an update that
doesn't generate the kinds of complaints and problems we're seeing, and that
"normal" people can use it, i.e., peoople not interested in trouble-shooting
but want simply to get their work done.

As for irresponsibility, I think it would be irresponsible of Rebecca and PA
Bear if they did NOT voice their opinions, and I thank them for making such a
discussion possible. And I send an extra salute to PA Bear for all the effort
and work he's put in helping people. I doubt my pessimistic comments will
discourage him.

But if you had ever been in my class, you would have known that opinion and
discussion is part of a learning process, regardless of how uncomfortable the
topic may be.



"Peter Foldes" wrote:

>
> Mwewe
>
> "As a retired Professor of Computer Science and current Software Engineer,"
>
> As per the above I find it surprisingly irresponsible what you are saying in your
> post. You of all people should know better. Very poor judgment if I also might add.
>
> As they say "You never know who you meet"
>
> --
> Peter
>
> Please Reply to Newsgroup for the benefit of others
> Requests for assistance by email can not and will not be acknowledged.
>
> "Mwewe" <Mwewe@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:76E76A06-7916-4363-9B58-3B955B0D92DD@microsoft.com...
> > PA Bear,
> >
> > You demonstrate very nicely the point that Rebecca makes. Millions don't and
> > millions do see the problems. Together that means there are millions of
> > problems.
> >
> > As an MS MVP you should know how to easily write a program that will install
> > on millions of machines and not cause problems on some but cause them on
> > others. That's an easy problem that even beginning programmers can solve.
> >
> > As a retired Professor of Computer Science and current Software Engineer, I
> > lament the lack of proficiency and determinism in current software
> > development.
> >
> > Rebecca, software development has devolved to a point where marketing issues
> > drive release dates, and developers rarely have time to work all the bugs out
> > or even write defensive stable code. So we have rampant interaction and
> > interference between programs in the industry, and it's now a huge Gordian
> > knot that may never be untangled.
> >
> > Note that today's method of troubleshooting help usually begins with
> > "Try...". Your computer is so different from mine that what "fixes" a problem
> > here my very well not fix it there.
> >
> > Hence we see the rise of attitudes that say "it works here so it must be
> > your fault", or "it works for millions of people, so it's your fault". Well,
> > it's not your fault. All you did was download software that promises to work
> > just fine on your system. You didn't write the software, nor did you see
> > warnings that there might be interactions, and you shouldn't have to do the
> > debugging.
> >
> > There are postings on the internet by people who have removed all their
> > add-ons, run their system after disabling all their normal utilities and in
> > bare-bones mode, and still see big problems in IE8. It's not your fault, it's
> > not your computer's fault.
> >
> > Mwewe
> >
> > "PA Bear [MS MVP]" wrote:
> >
> >> How is it that millions of users have installed IE8 Beta builds and IE8
> >> Final and have not seen the behavior you describe?
> >>
> >> Rebecca wrote:
> >> > I just uninstalled IE 8 (I was using IE 7), after hours of crashes,
> >> > freezes
> >> > (esp. with the tabs), various annoyances -- you name it, I endured it. I
> >> > installed it after reading several favorable reviews, but I am sure the
> >> > reviewers were not using the product, a common phenomenon.
> >> >
> >> > How is it possible that such a huge company with thousands of skilled
> >> > programmers could produce such a horrible defective product is beyond me!
> >> > I
> >> > guess it is a sign of the times, and we will have to get used to it.
> >>
> >>
>
>

"Rebecca" <Rebecca@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:A5EDA5CD-4D7B-4820-944F-B7D532DEA499@microsoft.com...
>I just uninstalled IE 8 (I was using IE 7), after hours of crashes, freezes
> (esp. with the tabs), various annoyances -- you name it, I endured it. I
> installed it after reading several favorable reviews, but I am sure the
> reviewers were not using the product, a common phenomenon.
>
> How is it possible that such a huge company with thousands of skilled
> programmers could produce such a horrible defective product is beyond me!
> I
> guess it is a sign of the times, and we will have to get used to it.
>
>


It works well here on a a variety of computers (laptops / desktops, Intel /
AMD, Sempron / Athlon etc. etc.). No problems on any of them yet.

There are some caveats when intalling IE8. It is recommended that some
utility / security software running on a PC be disabled before installing
IE8 and rebooting.

Saucy